MSI X58 boards bad chipset cooling - with proof and fix proposed for high IOH

[evr999]

Hello,

First of all I like MSI boards this is not an anti marketing thread. I own one and with a FIX I don't regret buying it.
I will go straight to the point, the cooling of chipsets on the MSI Eclipse/PRO is totally disastrous. Here is the proof :



Since we see this problem all around, and never "good" response from tech support, here it is - in color. You can't deny it.

I will stay with constructive remarks - the TIM or thermal paste violet is dry and hard as rock ! The bolts are not strong enough also, and doesn't center the heatsink firmly on the north bridge. So if for everyone with high temps of IOH this is why. Please stop telling us that from Intel spec it is OK since it's specified to go up to 100°C. Mine was about >85°C and after a replacement it is under 50°C. Heat causes instabilities and long term wear damage to any chip.

It is a problem of engineering. Bad TIM was selected. MSI will not admit it since it will cost too much to take back all theese boards.
Heat dissipation is so bad as if there were no heatsink on the chip.

Nothing is perfect, if it was MSI would send me a free tube of MX2  

MSI Eclipse SLI FIX - will work for other models certainly

Needed :

Thermal Paste - Arctic Cooling MX2 (Non conductive, long run, one of the best)

Optional :

Heatsink - Thermalright HR-05 / IFX
Tighter bolts, plastic screws.

How to:

-You need to take off the heatsink that cover both northbridge aka IOH and southbridge.
-The heatsink "DrMOS" over VRMs doesn't get that hot. The TIM on it is like straps and doesn't really require replacement.

If you don't have tighter bolts or screws, you can use existing and add some rings on it to heighten the pressure that will need the heatsink. Warning : If you use metal screws be sure to use a spring or it may do serious damage to the chip.



-Apply a small amount but enough of thermal paste to cover the violet rectangle of both heatsinks. Replace them on the board.

How to (with heatsink replacement) :

Your IOH will go down 40°C. Yes you've read right.

-With this method either you need A) to loose one part of the heatsink, B) or loose two SATA ports and will not be able to use SLI with long cards but for majority of people it will be fine and provide tremendous cooling performance to south bridge also. You can also buy a second heatsink if you wish to keep original untouched but I couldn't find any that would suits the board dimensions or provide improvements for the southbridge.

A)If you don't care about the original heatsink, you will need to cut the two heatpipes. Cut it near the southbridge. It doesn't need high cooling as IOH. Apply thermal paste to it and install the new Thermalright heatsink on the northbridge chipset.

---------

B)You will need to bend the heatsink ! It seems extreme but well works in fact. Bend it towards you and try doing it gentle so it is exactly at 90° angle :



-Before installing it, clean the small heatsink of the old violet "thermal paste". Apply the new thermal paste on the chipset. Now we can install the heatsink but upside down. It seems extreme again but it exactly fits. It won't apply weight pressure on the board since it touch the plastic IDE connector. Warning : be sure, absolutely sure that the heatsink doesn't touch any electrical components.

-Mount the Thermalright IFX and your done.

Here are picture of the final board, and with a mounted system :
(Clic on pics if you need high resolution picture)











The case is an Antec 1200. With modified +5V voltage on fans and with lowspeed enermax fan on processor it is whisper quiet.
Temperatures with overclocked BCLK at 175 MHz :
Idle/Load : IOH : 45°C / 50°C
Idle/Load : System : 35°C / 39°C
Idle/Load : CPU avg : 38°C / 67°C

Now this board is a jewel - impressive low power consumption, very high overclocking capability, stability.
Please MSI, fix your TIM and retention system. Maybe for the new eclipse will it be good ?


I hope this thread has cleared some questions and helped.

[David J]

Excellent write up EVR999!!! Any idea when the date of manufacture is on your mobo? My X58 Platinum SLI was manufactured in Jan of 09 and MSI seemed to have straightened it out by then. My IOH has never seem temps over 60 regardless of how far I pushed the OC. 

[HU16E]

Since your other thread shows that you have OC'd your board with excessive DRAM voltage, was wondering what was the highest IOH voltage you have applied? Otherwise, informative 'how to' for NB IOH & SB ICH reset options.

[evr999]

On other thread I never really applied "excessive" voltage long term. I said even with 1.75V the DRAM was not stable. This mean that I didn't even got to the desktop when starting windows. So it was only maybe what, 30 seconds ? Then reverted it back... We see overclocks at 1.9V DRAM always on so it won't hurt for 30 seconds at 1.75V.

This 1.65V limit was with the first boards. The exact reason from Intel is still obscure to me. If someone could enlighten this ?
I'm not 100% sure, but the 1.65V is also relative to other voltages.

I undervolt the IOH in fact with Powergenie before I tried overclocking. With such high temperatures without the IOH new heatsink, I wouldn't dare overvolting it ! When I took the board out of the box, the heatsinks where already moving when gently touching them. No it wasn't heat that made the TIM look that worse...

[shantita]

Dear Friend,

Excellent !!

I have just one question, it is possible to put another Thermalright HR-05 / IFX in the south bridge instead the stock heatsink?.

Thanks again,

Santiago

[evr999]

I have just one question, it is possible to put another Thermalright HR-05 / IFX in the south bridge instead the stock heatsink?.

Well possible yes. but with a short graphic card. There is another Thermalright, the HR-05-SLI/IFX :
http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/product_page/chipset/hr05_sli_ifx/product_chitset_cooler_hr05_sli_ifx.htm


There is even on there site a compatibility page which say that it works, both SB; NB for both HR-05/IFX; HR-05-SLI/IFX :
http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/product_page/mosfet/05-09-mcl.htm

This will work with long cards. But as I stated, the southbridge doesn't get hot. A small flat copper heatsink will do the trick.

[HU16E]

FYI, someone at MSI 'is' listening concerning these heat issues. The last X58 Pro board I helped build, had a fairly soft 'white' thermal paste that doesn't appear it will turn to a rock, rather than the hard cement purple stuff they had been using. On a negative note, & the reason for taking off the NB & SB heatsinks in the first place to redo them, is the board was 82c at idle. As mentioned, the new thermal paste seems to be a major improvement, but, only 2/3rds of the NB chip had any on it! The other 1/3rd was a shiny bare chip! I did get a chance to take a picture of it, but may be awhile before I get it linked. Reset the heatsinks using A.S. Ceramique, & 3/4" #4-40 nylon bolts, nuts, & washers. IOH temp 53c at idle.

[joker1973]

MSI is bolting down the heat sinks on the new realease X58's as well (Global).  So they did hear us.

[evr999]

On a negative note, & the reason for taking off the NB & SB heatsinks in the first place to redo them, is the board was 82c at idle.

are you serious ? With the new white paste ?

  So they did hear us.

excellent !

[HU16E]

Some more disturbing news. When all was done with one X58 Pro, my uncle & I are building another Pro for another family member. Barebones tested it to see if it needed any heatsink redo. Manufacture Date 02-18-09, bios version 7.1, & hopes were high. Idle 86c! After pulling the heatsinks, it had the new thermal paste, but again, the SB contact was about 50%, & the NB was only about 75% contact. In addition, the stock nylon pin springs are extremely weak. As compared to the springs on a 975X heatsink I'm working on, the spring tension is about half. Anyway, after doing the 'new hardware & re-thermal paste trick', the temp dropped to 54c at idle.

Would everyone else experiencing this heat issue please contact Tech. Support, & keep letting them know heat issues are still happening? I'm not a production line expert, but in the manufacturing process, seems the attention to detail in heatsink assembly process & some hardware selections, still have a problem.

http://ocss.msi.com.tw/

Added: Other than these heat issues that crop up, for a lower cost entry in the MSI X58 line-up, overall, it's a great little board.

[Mike]

Yes, anyone with this issue or discovering inadequate contact and such, please contact MSI.  There more they hear, the more attention the issue will get.  I'm not saying this is a whole product line issue--I'm just stating that people should let MSI know about their findings.

[HU16E]

Sorry it took me so long to get the pics linked. The lower IOH temp after the 'rework' was dramatic.

http://s326.photobucket.com/albums/k432/HU16E/X58%20Pro/

[RavenMaster]

Wow guys the thermal paste worked a treat! I just tried your fix and it works exceptionally well! At the start of today my Eclipse IOH temps were 80 degrees idle. I took off the copper heatsinks and scraped away that purple crud like u suggested. Applied some silver thermal paste and popped the heatsinks back on. Wow... 54 degrees idle now on my IOH temps. Thanks for the tip 

[bartman1973]

have exprienced that in my old MSI eclipse and my Friends MSI X58 pro ..we used as5 and 40mm cooling in the IOH and it dramatically went down to 50C at the average

I still have the pix of the fixes that I have done

[evr999]

HU16E nice you could have taken a pic. Indeed the paste looks weird ! They should just use some tape instead, not perfect but sufficient enough.

Wow guys the thermal paste worked a treat!

Happy for you  and I hope part from this "problem" that theese boards will hold now long.

I still have the pix of the fixes that I have done Smiley

Nice. Seeing all DIY around about this IOH, it seems that replacing the heatsink with a bigger is a bit useless. I shouldn't have changed it since you have the same temps (~50°C). I don't know if the 40 mm fan reduces a lot the temperature or only by a couple of degrees.

[paz45]

hi guys , just an add on to evr999 thread, ive also now changed both n/s bridge heatsinks, with excellant results some pictures for you all to look at.

temps before

[Mike]

I wouldn't recommend placing a MOBO on bubble wrap or plastic again--especially if you are in an area or during a season with very dry air.

[paz45]

cheers mike , lesson learned
also sorry for picture quality the temps where 59c before and 29c after on the n/bridge

[evr999]

paz54 nice you could send pics about the SLI IFX 

Is the fans of the water cooling heatsink is blowing hot air on top ? 

This is a horrible combination ! And the power supply takes all the heat and heats itself even more.
If you can, try to mount it outside on the back or top of your case, so all the mobo and cards will have a HUGE benefit from it.
Heats goes up by natural convection. If you are handy make holes on top of your case and screw the heatsink 



about the resized pictures, photobucket generates appropriate links for forums normally.

[oldbushie]

How do you remove those white plastic pins on the heatsinks?

I tried installing the Noctua Core i7 heatsink, in two different directions, and it seems to work best when I point the airflow towards the top of the case with the waterpipe holes opened (I have a Lian Li case that has some nice options). I can now run the CPU up to 100% under heavy computations and the individual cores only reach 75C now, with the overall CPU being 60-65C. However, the IOH is a bit hotter than it was before the new heatsink, even though I rotated the heatsink so that the intake fan is pulling air directly off of the IOH. It maxes out at 100C under heavy load. I tried twisting the plastic pins but I'm not sure how they're attached, and I really don't want to remove my motherboard from the tray again. I hope I can just remove and put back the plastic pins without having to go behind the board. At least the pins on my board seem to be holding the heatsinks on fairly snug.

[Henry]

 You need to remove the motherboard.

[oldbushie]

Dang. Maybe another day then, I don't feel like putzing around back there unless I have someone to help hold things in place. At least the IOH is a bit cooler in this configuration than it was with the fans going the other way, and 100C is still technically tolerable (though certainly not desirable),

[evr999]

easy. Remove as said the mainboard it will take you not more than 5 minutes. Just need to unscrew a couple of scews.

After this, just press with your nails the bolts on the back of the mainboard. If it's hard, press the bolt towards the board on the other side so there is less pressure on bolts.

If you wish to use some tools, be VERY careful not to scratch any lanes of copper of the board, this will lead to permanent damage.

It maxes out at 100C under heavy load

Hot... put thermal paste on it.

[Redshirt #24]

Should have left well enough alone, I think...I got a new x58 Pro yesterday, and before actually popping it into my PC and firing it up I decided to check the IOH heatsink.  It actually had some thin white paste on it, but was still using the spring-loaded clips...I removed the paste (partially screwing up the black rubber stuff around it on the actual heatsink), put a little Antec Silver 5 on both elements, reinstalled it, and went ahead with installation...it's been about an hour or so, and while it hasn't done anything crazy it's managed to stabilize at about 88c semi-idle.  I may have to go shopping for some nylon screws and bolts in the morning...

[GaSs]

Hey guys... I finnally got Nylon screws and everything and tried to remove the Heatsink... I couldnt get it loose , i got all 4 of those white clips loose and the top part the IOH loose but the smaller heatsink with the MSI logo on doesnt want to come off... How can i get it off? Im too scared to pull hard? Its stuck!! 

[Aaron]

Hey guys... I finnally got Nylon screws and everything and tried to remove the Heatsink... I couldnt get it loose , i got all 4 of those white clips loose and the top part the IOH loose but the smaller heatsink with the MSI logo on doesnt want to come off... How can i get it off? Im too scared to pull hard? Its stuck!! 

Give it a little tug, not hard, you might break the board.  If a tug fails - twist.

[GaSs]

Did anybody else have to give it a little tug also? Cause i pulled pretty hard and still it didnt move at all... Can i pull the chip out the board? Or wouldnt that happen? I mean, how hard can a twist?


They guys who have had the heatsink off did you struggle at all?

[HU16E]

Yikes GaSs! Sounds like you have a heatsink with the hard purple stuff. On one of the X58 Pro's, we had to 'gently' use a screwdriver & pry it off. Used a rolled up piece of cardboard to use as a fulcrum so as not to damage the board. As Aaron mentioned, it may be safer to 'gently' twist rather than take a chance on having to pry to hard. At least that will have less chance of dislodging the chipset.

[GaSs]

Dam it... Not so keen on Prying it off with a screw Driver... That amount of force might rip off the Chip??? 

[HU16E]

The side to side 'gentle' twisting isn't helping I take it? Since it sounds like you 'have' to get it off now, just 'gently' work the corners with prying. Try using a wood popsicle stick or a 'non' metal item to lessen the chances for damage. The 'last' thing we want to hear, is your board got damaged. Btw, what was your idle temp?

[Henry]

 It might have helped to have it powered up for a bit to help soften that thermal stuff before trying to remove that thing.

[Aaron]

Henry, that's a very, very good point!

GaSs, do you have a heatgun or hair dryer?  A few seconds on a decent temp should loosen it up a fair amount.

[Mike]

You can also try a hair dryer to heat up the paste.

[Henry]

 This is my 7300GT GPU chip. Not that I need it any more but this kind of damage does happen. Dont be too alarmed by seeing this, I had an Athlon CPU cooler on it that I want to keep and it was stuck on w/Artic Alumina thermal adhesive.


 Image removed.
                                             

[Aaron]

You can also try a hair dryer to heat up the paste.

That was what I meant.

[jakethesnake011]

I had to RMA my board when doing this since my IOH chip got screwed up when I was added my new hr-05 sli's.  I had to take the foam off and the plastic stick on the bottom of the heatsink, since my artci sliver cleaner got under the plastic and crap so I pulled them off and used a razor to help.  I don't know if the transistors contacting the metal shorted the IOH out, but it was not good.  Took a month to get a new board after 2 shippings and enough bitching to MSI. 

[Aaron]

I don't live in the USA, but a month sounds like a long time?  Perhaps you could share your experience more in-depth?

Anything I have returned has been back in my hands in less than a week.

[jakethesnake011]

Well I had to RMA 1st and ship it out.  I tested all my part before shipping and narrowed it to the motherboard, my cpu and other parts were fine.  They got it and "tested" it for a week, and shipped it back to me saying ti was fine, which it was not same condition it was when I sent it.  So I then RMAed again requesting a new one and they "tested" that for over a week and I got it a month later.  They also shipped the cheapest way and took 9 days, 7 business days to get it from them twice.  They would not be nice and next day or 2nd day since they shipped me the borken baord back they were being like any other corporate company. 

[HU16E]

  Is evr999's informative thread turning into a moan hole? I hope GaSs was successful in a safe heatsink removal & subsequent re-installation.

[jakethesnake011]

Not moaning just sharing my experience with MSI.  I like the board.  Anyways, when the heatsink is taken off and the purple TIM is cleaned, did anyone have a problem with the foam pad falling apart?  I used Arctic Cleaner and that killed the foam pad, made it fall apart and kind of ate it away, anyone else notice it?  I am tempted to try and clean it, but what happened last time is worrying me. 

[Redshirt #24]

Actually, the ArctiClean stuff is what screwed up the foam (or whatever it is) pad on my heatsink as well...worked beautifully on it and the thermal paste.    Still need some nylon screws, I think, but the IOH seems to be stable at about 85-88c...

[HU16E]

jake, does your new board heatsink have the purple or new soft white TIM? If white, here is what worked for me to not damage the pad. A small wood popsicle stick pushing the TIM towards the center of the square section, making a fairly easy ball to remove in a large chunk. After getting as much as possible off this way, I used cotton swabs with just a minimum amount of cleaner on it, & carefully avoided contact with the pad material. Hope this suggestion helps.

[Henry]

 I use my expired debit and auto club cards as scrapers. When the edge gets dull I just cut a strip off and then have a new sharp edge.

[jakethesnake011]

Thanks guys.
I do not know if it is the new white TIM or the old purple TIM, I have not gotten a chance to take it apart and I am nervous to do so, since what happened last time.  Last time I was replacing the IOH and ICH heatsink with the Thermalright HR-05 SLI/IFX, and let me tell you they do not fit well at all, with a 4870x2 and a TRUE for CPU cooling, so I had to put the old heatsink back on and that is when things got bad and the motherboard broke.  So I do think that losing the foam pad is what caused the transistors on the x58 chipset to short out since the motherboard was not moving from the CPU INI phase on bootup and the CPU was fine in anther system.  My board is new and was a replacement so it is a new revision I am guessing so I am thinking it has the white TIM on it, sicne when I got the motherboard back form MSI the day I was putting my computer back up, I took the heatsink for the IOH and I was able to move it about a few millimeters from side to side, so my guess is the TIM is that white stuff, since the purple TIM was like glue and would not allow the heatsink to move like that.

[evr999]

Well in fact if it sticks hard it's working or I'm missing something ? Why removing it ? only for better thermal performance ?
Isn't it the point to have a big pressure to lower the thermal resistance... as far as there is no air between it should work well.


You all say to put heat on the chip. For the info : I've heard that you must apply COLD to unstick corsairs.
For example, to remove the heatsink on corsairs that has thermal paste that are like "glued", you must put
on your freezer, the gently remove with a screwdriver on each sides and then suddenly it unsticks. Be warned about condensation afterwards.

Maybe it's just for exotic materials, or it depends on their nature. I'm no expert about this.

[GaSs]

May i ask what foam are you guys speaking about? Should i be worried, cause im going to try get mine off by twisting, my idle temps are between 70 and 74... The IOH isnt stuck the smaller one below is with the MSI logo on it...

[Redshirt #24]

On the underside of the heatsink for the IOH there's this black foam/rubber/whatever rectangle surrounding the area that actually makes contact with the NB chip.  I'm not entirely certain why it's there, but it's there.

[HU16E]

The purpose of the pad, is to prevent the heatsink itself, to make contact with the other electronics alongside the X58 chip.

[transdogmifier]

I've been trying to find the nylon screws/nuts to do this and am having no luck. The only ones that might work I can find are way too long.

Anyone can point me in the right direction to find them, I'd appreciate it.

[Blaise]

Radio Shack or an electronic parts store.