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Author Topic: Memory Roundup  (Read 119397 times)

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angler

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Memory Roundup
« on: 13-January-04, 16:43:27 »

The following excerpt is taken from a Mushkin 64 Announcement.

The Athlon64 itself uses a single memory channel and only one controller on the CPU. Because of this, the Athlon 64 (non-FX) can actually use plain vanilla, unbuffered, non-ECC modules. There are, however, still some peculiarities of the Athlon64 systems in how they are handling memory which effects memory compatibility.

One of the most critical issues in this respect relates to the first step in the memory access sequence, that is, the opening of a memory page and subsequent steps until a read command can be issued. All of these steps fall into the time frame referred to as RAS-to-CAS delay or tRCD. In a typical system, the memory controller on the chipset is running at bus speed. On the Athlon64, it is running at CPU speed, which means that it is A LOT faster. That means that the internal sequence of commands also goes faster, and that's where all systems are getting hiccups if the memory chips used can only run at a high tRCD.

A very trivial explanation is that the controller expects that the memory is as fast as it itself but we don't have memory yet running at a 2 GHz and beyond clock rate. What it comes down to is that, depending on the BIOS tuning (by the manufacturer), the read command is issued a bit too early and violates the tRCD. The workaround is to add one additional cycle to the actual memory latency, that is, a 2:2:2-rated DIMM will run stable at 2:3:2; a 2:3:2 rated module will, most likely, need to be set to 2:4:2 in order to run stable (where the latencies are CAS:tRCD:tRP). Bottom line is that when shopping for memory for the Athlon64, it is highly advisable and in most cases mandatory to only consider memory with a tRCD of 2 or, to make it simple, memory that is rated at 2:2:2 a the designated speed. Alternatively, registered DIMMs can be used as well without problems, even though they are slightly more expensive and will give lower performance.


Although there are (as TomsHardware pointed out in its latest article) motherboard specific memory incompatibilities which will result in an inability to boot, the vast majority of memory problems dealing with the 64 simply result in system instability.

Particularly when using two DIMM sticks, the RAS to CAS memory timing (also seen as tRCD) will often cause random reboots and memory failures at 400 MHz unless it is run at one stepping higher than for that which the memory is qualified.

For instance, the (old) 2-2-2-6-1T Kingston PC3200 HyperX memory should be run at 2-3-2-6-1T, and the (new) 2-3-2-6-1T Kingston PC3200 HyperX memory should be run at 2-4-2-6-1T if you experience any instability at the factory default setting.  Running the RAM at a lower frequency (such as 166 MHz, or DDR333 speeds) would also solve the problem (and you could keep the tight timings), yet at a larger performance sacrifice than that of the slight upping of the timings.

As was previously mentioned, slower RAM (CL 3 sticks, especially those that run slower than 200 MHz) may not cause the instabilities that fast DDR400 RAM sticks will.  However, because of the extremely low latency and high bandwidth of the integrated memory controller on the AMD 64 chip, faster RAM offers significant performance increases over its slower "ValueRam" competitors.

Thus, here are my (unprofessional) recommendations for those of you who are buying RAM sticks, although the compatibility of these sticks with the K8T Neo FIS2R could change at any time.

There are two high end recommendations that come to mind: the Mushkin Level II PC3500 (2-2-2-5 @ 400 MHz) and the OCZ PC3500 Platinum (2-2-2-5 @ 400 MHz) both operate on old Winbond BH-5 chips, which are notorious for being able to achieve very low timings.  However, such chips are no longer made (I have heard that this is changing, but for now it is true), such that the DIMMs that incorporate this memory are expensive and hard to find.  These two sticks of RAM are the only ones that I know of that still guarantee BH-5 memory, and as such they can run extremely fast at 400 MHz (good b/c of the relatively low FSB of the 64), and have headroom to spare (b/c of PC3500) for overclocking (dynamic or not) as well as the ability to slow down the tRCD timing while still remaining extremely fast.

Kingston HyperX memory is fast becoming a crowd favorite because it offers good latency timings for a low price.  At least the current generation of the DIMMs should have compatible memory in the sticks (this might change, they've been having supply issues), but be warned... I have not found much headroom at all for overclocking, and you will probably have to run the timings at at least 2-4-2-6-1T (up from 2-3-2-6-1T) to get stable performance at the factory verified settings.

If you do not have the money for high end RAM, or do not want to deal with the potential instabilities, you can still buy ValueRam, which should only suffer from motherboard incompatibilities.  I do not have much information on this right now... I'm sure more data will come out in the following weeks.

Once again, I cannot completely guarantee that the chips used on the RAM sticks I mention above are compatible with the MS-6702.  I have found the current generation of these DIMMS (particularly the ones running with Winbond BH-5 memory) to boot and run (sometimes with shored memory settings) on the K8T Neo FIS2R.

As for RAM that I do not have enough information to support on the AMD 64 platform:

Crucial is forced to use CH-5 memory sticks (not quite as fast of memory latency), and I have heard some stories of motherboard incompatibility with the K8T Neo FIS2R, so I would not support their memory given my current level of information.  Any feedback from Crucial owners would be appreciated.

Likewise, Corsair memory is not currently running at quite as tight of timings at the higher frequencies, and TomsHardware reported a failure to boot with MSI's motherboard, so I cannot in good faith support this memory at this time.

Any memory incompatibilities or experiences that you guys could contribute would be useful.  Right now, the situation's kinda messy.

P.S. - One note about high end memory -- often it is made (and wants) to be run at raised voltages.  Unfortunately, the current BIOS revision tops out at 2.85 v, which might lower the overclocking headroom for some sticks (although that is certainly enough to get the RAM to run at specified frequency at fast timings).

-Angler
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scottg26

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« Reply #1 on: 13-January-04, 17:24:37 »

in bios my memory is set to "auto"

and CPU-Z tells me this about it

Cas: 2.5

RAS TO CAS delay: 3

RAS Precharge: 3

Cycle time (Tras): 14

Bank cycle time (Trc): 12

DRAM idle timer: 16 clocks

Total CAS (tRDRAM) is blanked out
so is  Row to Column (tRCD)


my prime 95 torture test fails on "blend" mode.

what do you recommend i change?
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angler

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« Reply #2 on: 13-January-04, 17:59:33 »

Quote
Originally posted by scottg26
in bios my memory is set to "auto"

and CPU-Z tells me this about it

Cas: 2.5

RAS TO CAS delay: 3

RAS Precharge: 3

Cycle time (Tras): 14

Bank cycle time (Trc): 12

DRAM idle timer: 16 clocks

Total CAS (tRDRAM) is blanked out
so is  Row to Column (tRCD)

my prime 95 torture test fails on "blend" mode.

what do you recommend i change?

I'm assuming that your memory is error free (passes Memtest86).  If you haven't tested it, you probably should.

Now, go into your BIOS and force your RAS TO CAS (tRCD) delay to 4 clocks (such that you are running at 2.5-4-3-8).  That is the first thing you should try.

If that doesn't work, you can try upping your voltage.  Faster RAM (I'm assuming you either have PC3200 or PC3500) will often require slightly raised voltages to run stably, even at the marked frequency.  The 184 edge connector pads for the TwinMOS RAM are even marked with a required voltage of 2.5 Voltage +/- 0.2V.  The K8T Neo FIS2R only allows raising RAM voltage to 2.85 -- this should be more than enough to get any good RAM to run at specification.  As always, go slowly with the voltages... there is a small risk involved (and I am not liable for any damages).

If neither of those works, I would first try restricting your timings a bit more, although many RAM sticks will not even post if you set certain timings too low.  If this happens, just clear the CMOS (make sure the system is off first!) and restart.  Or you could always run at a lower frequency, although it may hurt performance by quite a bit (it would on Bartons, I'm not sure about the 64 yet... and I don't think many people would be happy running so far under specification anyway).

BTW... if you do get your RAM to run stable, it is specified (supposed) to be able to run @ CL 2.0, despite the SPD settings.  Try and limit it to 2 once you have it performing well.

-Angler
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scottg26

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« Reply #3 on: 14-January-04, 06:27:00 »

Thanks for the reply :)

my ram is in my sig, memtest86 reports no errors after about 11 hours or so.

Before my previous post i set my cas latency to 3 to see what would happen and i got no POST, i had to restart.

Could upping the voltage damaged the motherboard?
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scottg26

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« Reply #4 on: 14-January-04, 07:07:37 »

ok setting tras from auto (3) to 4, i still get error in prime 95, although now get a different error after 4 minutes than i was always getting before with everything on auto.
before it was a rounding error or something

FATAL ERROR: Resulting sum was 7083859421626368, expected: 799183088787921

i havent seen that error before, also i did not adjust the voltage yet
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bznotins

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« Reply #5 on: 14-January-04, 07:15:18 »

OK, I've got a NewEgg order arriving tomorrow and I will probably be assembling on the weekend.

K8T Neo
XP64 3000+
Mushkin Level 1 PC3200 2-3-2 Black Dual Pack (2x512MB)

I simply can't afford the HyperX or Level 2 RAM and was really pushing the budget by even getting the Level 1 product, so 2-2-2 RAM was/is never an option.

But I posted on the Mushkin forum (here) and was informed the same thing that is noted by OP.  I should run this RAM at 2-4-2 (instead of 2-3-2) to ensure stability.

I'll let you know how it goes when I set everything up.  I'm a bit nervous (Level 2 RAM would be really nice) but like I said, this was the only way for me to get higher-end name brand RAM and even come close to my budget.  Anandtech really seems to like Mushkin RAM (they use it quite often in their tests and recommend it in some of their monthly price guides) so I'm confident in the brand...

Again, I'll post a follow-up later this weekend and let everyone know if this RAM is a good option in the K8T Neo.

Z
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angler

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« Reply #6 on: 14-January-04, 12:58:00 »

Quote
Could upping the voltage damaged the motherboard?

Yes, but its not likely if you take it slow.  Really, you should experience prohibitive stability problems (hard crashes, no posts, etc...) long before you reach damagingly high voltage levels.  Increasing DRAM voltage will increase stability up to a certain point, and past that it will begin degrading stability.  You need to go even further before you can realistically harm anything.

But to be more explicit, increasing voltage CAN DAMAGE SYSTEM COMPONENTS if not done carefully.  If you really punch up the voltage (i.e. not progressing gradually) then the most likely result will be fried memory modules.  If you REALLY give it a lot of voltage then it is possible to damage the memory sockets and local resources on the PCB.

If you're worried about it, most branded (Kingston, Corsair, Mushkin) memory companies supply a specific voltage range which will not void memory warranty.  This is a pretty good safety margin.  You can usually find that voltage range on the company's website, or by calling the company sales department.

"Luckily" (=/) the K8T Neo FIS2R only supports DRAM voltages up to 2.85V, which is only in the lowest order of potential danger for high quality RAM (if that).

-Angler
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Kyde

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RE: Memory Roundup
« Reply #7 on: 14-January-04, 16:37:40 »

Howdy.
I just put my system together this weekend.  You were asking for posts with stable memory configurations?

I wrote to Crucial and specifically asked them if this memory would work in the K8T Neo and they said it would so I bought it.  I've always had good luck with Crucial memory.

I bought two sticks of this:  CT6464Z40B (each stick = 512 megs)
DDR PC3200 • CL=3 • Unbuffered • Non-parity • 5ns • 2.6V • 64Meg x 64

Everything seemed great until I tried to download and install the Windows XP Professional hotfixes from Microsoft's website.  The system would start to install the hotfixes and then it would jump to a black screen and never recover.  I had to reboot several times.  I decided to forget about the hotfixes for a bit and make sure I had all the latest drivers for the motherboard and my video card.  Once I grabbed those and installed them (I used Live Update 3 for the MB updates and went directly to ATI's website to grab the ones for the video card) everything stabilized and the sleeping problem appears to have disappeared.  All hotfixes have been installed and the system is wickedly fast (compared to my old system...Pentium III 733MHz).  

You guys seem MUCH more advanced than I am and know a HELL of a lot more about this stuff than I do, so forgive me my ignorance, but this CL=3 memory I bought...was that a mistake?  Should I have gone with another company?  I don't know anything about changes in voltages and stuff like that, so I've kept almost everything at the BIOS defaults.  I'm at work at the moment and do not have access to my PC to give you specific details.

One thing HAS been bugging me, though....  I've seen this posted a bunch of times, but not quite like I'm about to describe it...

This is about that damn message at boot regarding RAID arrays and what not.  Yes, I understand that if I don't have a SATA drive and if I'm not using RAID, I can disable it in the BIOS, but I've only seen it described here as disabling the Promise Driver in the BIOS.  I get TWO messages:  The first one is regarding the Promise driver and the fact that no bios is installed.  The SECOND message is from VIA and how it tries to detect drives.  I found a way to get rid of the Promise "no bios installed" message, but is there a way to get rid of the VIA message, too?

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  

Any help would be appreciated.

-Kyde-
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #8 on: 14-January-04, 16:45:05 »
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    are you sure its not there in the same place as bios guide i read for the 600 via it is
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    Kyde

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    « Reply #9 on: 14-January-04, 17:07:59 »

    Yeah...they're both there, but if I get rid of the one that says PATA, it kills ALL my IDE devices.  I can only get rid of the SATA one...that's one kills the NO BIOS error.

    Thanks for the post, dude.
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    angler

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    « Reply #10 on: 14-January-04, 18:13:31 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by Kyde

    I wrote to Crucial and specifically asked them if this memory would work in the
    You guys seem MUCH more advanced than I am and know a HELL of a lot more about this stuff than I do, so forgive me my ignorance, but this CL=3 memory I bought...was that a mistake?  Should I have gone with another company?  I don't know anything about changes in voltages and stuff like that, so I've kept almost everything at the BIOS defaults.  I'm at work at the moment and do not have access to my PC to give you specific details.

    Any help would be appreciated.

    -Kyde-

    So long as you aren't having any stability problems right now, you shouldn't have to worry about changing the latency timings or DRAM voltage.  Fiddling with settings is normally only needed with the very fastest RAM, simply because some components cannot synchronize with the memory (or it is unable to function as fast as specified without additional voltage).

    Don't worry about changing your RAM.  Although the integrated memory controller in the AMD 64 chip may be able to utilize faster memory timings, your RAM certainly shouldn't be a bottleneck in your system.  It is rated to run at a frequency of 200 MHz (*2 = DDR400), which is the maximum natively supported speed that the K8T Neo board supports, and which runs in sync with the 200 MHz FSB.  Since you have the 3000+ and an EIDE harddrive with a 9600, you obviously buy components with a high price to performance ratio.  The RAM you bought should fit into your system perfectly.

    Hope you enjoy your upgrade from the PIII!

    -Angler
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    Kyde

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    Thanks!
    « Reply #11 on: 14-January-04, 19:01:07 »

    Whew!
    Thanks for the post!  I feel better about it.....  The adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"  seems to apply here.  My system DOES seem to be running great now except for that damn boot error with the VIA drivers...it's not really even an error...I just don't want the POST to bother checking...slows the boot time.

    Once again....there are two IDE settings I can mess with in the BIOS:

    1.) PATA
    2.) SATA

    If I get rid of PATA (disable it) it kills ALL IDE devices.  If it disable the SATA, it gets rid of the Promise NO BIOS DETECTED error, but I still get the Via problem.

    Everything is SO MUCH faster than my old system I'm willing to live with it, but it's the PRINCIPLE of the thing, ya know?  I'm not using RAID OR the SATA stuff, so I don't want it to check for any of it!
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    M4j0r

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    « Reply #12 on: 14-January-04, 19:33:29 »

    So with the MSI neo will Kingston 512MB Hyper-X DDR400 work? the type found here http://www.xcanpc.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23_88_205&products_id=677 with 2-3-2-6-1
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    angler

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    « Reply #13 on: 14-January-04, 19:52:51 »

    The current generation of memory chips used by Kingston in its HyperX memory should work fine with the K8T Neo.  However, I would count on maybe having to set the tRCD latency to 4 (2-4-2-6-1T) and perhaps raising the voltages some in order to get the stick to run at DDR400 speeds without instability.  Alternatively, you could lower the frequency (i.e. DDR333), but your performance would suffer.

    Also, (just my personal experience, though I've only tested HyperX with older 2-2-2-6-1T chips) don't expect much overclocking, even with raised voltages.  If you want to overclock significantly, it would probably be a good idea to buy PC3500 RAM and run it slightly underspeed (you can almost always tighten timings when you underclock RAM... so don't shy away from faster memory just because the specified latency seems higher).

    HyperX has very good performance for the price, but you will probably have to fiddle with settings in order to get your sticks running at specification.

    -Angler
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    M4j0r

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    « Reply #14 on: 14-January-04, 20:58:15 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by angler
    The current generation of memory chips used by Kingston in its HyperX memory should work fine with the K8T Neo.  However, I would count on maybe having to set the tRCD latency to 4 (2-4-2-6-1T) and perhaps raising the voltages some in order to get the stick to run at DDR400 speeds without instability.  Alternatively, you could lower the frequency (i.e. DDR333), but your performance would suffer.

    Also, (just my personal experience, though I've only tested HyperX with older 2-2-2-6-1T chips) don't expect much overclocking, even with raised voltages.  If you want to overclock significantly, it would probably be a good idea to buy PC3500 RAM and run it slightly underspeed (you can almost always tighten timings when you underclock RAM... so don't shy away from faster memory just because the specified latency seems higher).

    HyperX has very good performance for the price, but you will probably have to fiddle with settings in order to get your sticks running at specification.

    -Angler

      Thanks for the information, I'm not planing on overclocking them, just want a good system to play games on, and this memory is a good price for preformence. As for the setting i might have to change (tRCD latence to 4 and voltage) how hard is it to do so, i am suppecting somthing in the bios.
     
                 Thanks.
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    xinul

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    « Reply #15 on: 15-January-04, 06:43:39 »

    I too am having issues using 2x 512 corsair 3200, it will boot but with both sticks in the xp install would return errors advising files were not copied correctly as if the cd were damaged or it would blue screen. After removing one stick and running with only 1x512 I was able to install and it runs great.
    I came across the toms hardware article and noticed they couldn’t even get their test to boot using corsair 3200 however they had some pro version.

    My question would be is this something that is likely to be fixed by a bios upgrade in the near future as toms seemed to hope? If its not and I have to buy new ram that does work with this mb can I get away with ordering one stick and partnering it with the corsair or should I just buy two new sticks.
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    angler

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    « Reply #16 on: 15-January-04, 12:31:19 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by M4j0r
    As for the setting i might have to change (tRCD latence to 4 and voltage) how hard is it to do so, i am suppecting somthing in the bios.

    You're right; they are both changes made in the BIOS.  To alter the latency from the SPD defaults, goto "Advanced Chipset Features".  The value that you will be most interested in is "TRCD", which should be set to auto (3).  Manually change it to 4.  Don't worry if you have a mixture of Auto and Manual settings, they work fine together.  If you change a timing and the system won't POST, you must clear the CMOS (make sure your computer is off when you do this) and try again.

    The voltage can be altered from the "Frequency/Voltage Control" area.  HyperX DDR400 sticks require 2.6 +- 0.2V, so don't be shy (but be careful).

    Quote
    Originally posted by xinul
    I too am having issues using 2x 512 corsair 3200, it will boot but with both sticks in the xp install would return errors advising files were not copied correctly as if the cd were damaged or it would blue screen. After removing one stick and running with only 1x512 I was able to install and it runs great.
    I came across the toms hardware article and noticed they couldn’t even get their test to boot using corsair 3200 however they had some pro version.

    My question would be is this something that is likely to be fixed by a bios upgrade in the near future as toms seemed to hope? If its not and I have to buy new ram that does work with this mb can I get away with ordering one stick and partnering it with the corsair or should I just buy two new sticks.

    Exactly what kind of RAM (model no. etc.) do you have?  Just the fact that it's not "Pro" doesn't really narrow the field down when we're talking about corsair memory.  It could be one of many non-pro XMS sticks, or a stick of ValueRam.

    However, just from the symptoms that you have described, I would guess that your system is simply experiencing (unfortunately) normal instability associated with faster RAM.  Especially with low latency modules, the load on your components increases greatly with the addition of a second stick of memory.  I would guess that you could fix your problems (now that you have Windows loaded) by taking the steps that I have outlined above... lowering tRCD, raising voltage, and fiddling with settings.

    DO NOT buy a stick of different RAM and substitute it in for one of your own.  Unless you have physical memory errors (give Memtest86 a try if you suspect any), there isn't anything inherently wrong with your memory sticks.  Anyway, memory can only run as fast as its slowest performing DIMM, thus creating an inefficiency with almost any pairing you choose.  Also, different kinds of RAM (sometimes even from the same manufacturer) do not play well together, which is one reason that companies sell paired DIMMs for dual channel systems.  If you really want to replace your RAM, change them both.

    -Angler
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    jpadron

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    Memory
    « Reply #17 on: 15-January-04, 16:04:13 »

    Angler if you had a significant amount of money, and you have bought (all the items I have listed below) and are now searching for 2 512mb memory sticks? Which would you recommend me as I have the money yet really confused on which memory sticks to buy...
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    xinul

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    « Reply #18 on: 15-January-04, 19:43:52 »

    thanks for the input the ram itself is corsair xms3200. I did try playing with the settings as you had mentioned before without much luck. I never took the voltage above .75 because it didnt seem to be making much diffrence and I thought I was beging to push it.

    From what Ive read on a cople other post it sounds like this compatblity problem may not be fixable by a bios update down the road in which case I may have to buy one of the brands of ram you previously recomended.
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    angler

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    RE: Memory
    « Reply #19 on: 16-January-04, 08:03:32 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by onnightfall
    Angler if you had a significant amount of money, and you have bought (all the items I have listed below) and are now searching for 2 512mb memory sticks? Which would you recommend me as I have the money yet really confused on which memory sticks to buy...

    Despite recent information that we've determined, I can't really say much more than I did in my original post.  If you want high end RAM (and are willing to pay the price) picking up memory with BH-5 chips would definitely be a good idea.  Mushkin Level II and OCZ Platinum both offer identical performance and price (~$300 for 2 512 sticks).  For a slightly better price to performance ratio, Kingston HyperX memory should work, although you'll probably have to change the settings some (as you would with all fast RAM, including the Mushkin and OCZ).  Although I can't verify that OCZ has no compatibility issues, I should be getting a pair of Mushkin DIMMs today (hopefully) which I can slap into a K8T Neo and see for myself what happens.  Based on others' accounts, my guess is that the Level II RAM will run fine @ 2-3-2-5 or 2-3-2-6 with 2.75V @ 400 MHz. I'll keep you posted.

    I'd stay away from Corsair, at least until we get these issues figured out.  They ran out of BH-5 memory anyway, and are forced to use slower CH-5 (of course so has Kingston, although they retain slightly higher timings).

    If you're going for ValueRam, you have a lot of options.  I don't really have any favorites.

    -Angler
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    NAR

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    Corsair Ram
    « Reply #20 on: 17-January-04, 10:36:47 »

    My experience with Corsair Ram..

    I have just built a machine with a K8T Neo (Athlon 64 3200+, Radeon9800)

    The Ram label says TWIN1024-3200c2pt.

    Although the auto settings did not work very well (continuous reboots when set as DDR400 and auto settings on every thing else) but when set manually as 2-3-3-6
    it seems to be fine, memtest86 and Prime95 seem to run for several hours with no errors and good scores on 3Dmark2001se and 3Dmark2003 (compared to other Web reviews).
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    Deathshroud

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    O/Cing mem
    « Reply #21 on: 17-January-04, 12:38:52 »

    Ok, I have 1 stick of Samsung DDR 333, and another stick which is Samsung DDR 266.  However I have added cooling on the 266 stick, and with my Athlon XP system I had the  266 running at 333 without any problems.  Now that I have moved on to an Athlon 64 based system, I seem to be having trouble getting the memory to run at 333.  I noticed in the BIOS of my MSI K8T Neo that there is a memclock limiter, but nothing to acutally modify the memory clock.  Any suggestions?
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    xinul

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    « Reply #22 on: 17-January-04, 13:59:03 »

    hm cool you got it working nar I tried all kidns of settings with my corsair ram no go. I jsut bit the bullet and bought some new ram kingston hyper X 4000 and now the system is running great with 2x512.
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    jpadron

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    « Reply #23 on: 17-January-04, 14:15:27 »

    Angler, keep me posted on those Mushkin DIMMs when you try them...

    I'm planning on buying these guys

    http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-146-288&depa=1

    Are those the ones you baught Angler? and if so keep me posted and if not let me know the diff and what do you guys think about these?
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    Wonkanoby

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    « Reply #24 on: 17-January-04, 14:30:48 »
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    4GB OCZ
    60 GB Vertex drive
    ATI 5850

    jpadron

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #25 on: 17-January-04, 16:11:16 »

    After that post I just finished buying it lmao

    Mushkin 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR400 PC-3200 Level II Dual Pack - Retail

    Specification
    Manufacturer: Mushkin
    Speed: DDR400(PC3200)
    Type: 184 Pin DDR SDRAM
    Error Checking: Non-ECC
    Registered/Unbuffered: Unbuffered
    Cas Latency: 2-2-2
    Support Voltage: 2.5V-2.75V
    Bandwidth: 3.2GB/s
    Organization: two 64M x 64 -Bit
    Warranty: Lifetime  
     
    :)
    Logged

    JLP

    • Guest
    TwinMOS TwiSTER PC3200/DDR400 CL2.0
    « Reply #26 on: 17-January-04, 18:31:04 »

    Yesterday I purchased two sticks of 512MB TwinMOS TwiSTER PC3200/DDR400 CL2.0 memoy. And I couldn't get it to run despite trying very hard. I attached D-Bracket and the motherboard stops at Early Chipset Initialization. So I couldn't even get into BIOS or see any boot info on the screen. I tried the sticks on other computers and it worked just fine there. So I guess this is not the type of memory to buy for this board. At least until they fix the BIOS (if it is even possible).
    Logged

    fatebender

    • Guest
    Corsair memory
    « Reply #27 on: 17-January-04, 20:44:38 »

    Well I will be going into the deep end of the pool Monday night as I have just found this thread.  I will be attempting to setup a system with either Corsair CMX512-3500C2 or Corsair DDRAM 1GB TWINX1024-3200LLPRO.  Looks like I will be eating two restocking fees. :)  Anticipating update to come from my wife's stable system. :)
    Logged

    Uvig3

    • Guest
    How about 1.5 Gig?
    « Reply #28 on: 18-January-04, 12:24:49 »

    Has anyone been able to get 3 512 sticks to work?  I can get two, but so far I haven't been able to even boot with 3.  I admit my ram is mismatched and not the highest rated (Centon and PNY), but it's working ok at 1Gig.
    Logged

    dubss

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #29 on: 18-January-04, 12:44:13 »

    Has anyone tried Mushkin Level I PC-3200.  Angler has recommended their Level II memory, but that is a little out of my price range.  Also does the Level I have the same BH-5 memory that the Level II has or does it have the CH-5.  Any help with this would be much appreciated, as I have been putting off buying this new Athlon64 for the past couple of weeks just trying to find a compatable memory.  Thanks to everyone in advance.

    Here is the system I am planning on buying: Any comments are more than welcome.

    Antec Power Plus 430W True Power
    AMD Athlon64
    MSI K8T Neo-FIS2R
    1 gig Mushkin Level I DDR PC-3200
    ATI AIW Radeon 9600Pro
    160 gig Seagate SATA HD
    Logged

    bznotins

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #30 on: 18-January-04, 16:26:42 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by dubss
    Has anyone tried Mushkin Level I PC-3200.  Angler has recommended their Level II memory, but that is a little out of my price range.  Also does the Level I have the same BH-5 memory that the Level II has or does it have the CH-5.  Any help with this would be much appreciated, as I have been putting off buying this new Athlon64 for the past couple of weeks just trying to find a compatable memory.  Thanks to everyone in advance.

    Here is the system I am planning on buying: Any comments are more than welcome.

    Antec Power Plus 430W True Power
    AMD Athlon64
    MSI K8T Neo-FIS2R
    1 gig Mushkin Level I DDR PC-3200
    ATI AIW Radeon 9600Pro
    160 gig Seagate SATA HD

    Dubss, actually I was one of the first posters in this thread and I was asking about the very same RAM you are.

    Well, I finally got my components from NewEgg and just assembled my system:

    AMD 64 3000+ @ 215mhz overclock
    Mushkin Black Level One 2x512MB PC3200 RAM (here) @ 2-3-2-11 timings
    Fortron FSP300-60PN 300W Power Supply (specs here)
    WD 120GB HD
    LiteOn LTR-163 DVD-ROM
    LiteOn LTR-411s DVD Burner
    BFG GeForce 4 Ti4200 128 MB

    I was thinking that I would have to go with the Mushkin recommendations and run 2-4-2 on my RAM, but even before I installed Windows XP I ran Memtest86+ at 2-3-2 and everything was cool, so I said "WTH" and installed WinXP at the base timings.

    Well, let me just say even though I'm running overclocked, everything is great.  I've run MemTest86+ through a few cycles and 3DMark through a few and no problems!  Woot!

    So, I guess one could say that it is safe to buy the Level 1 RAM (I couldn't afford the Level 2 either).

    Also what I find interesting is that certain people on this forum get all bent out of shape if you're not running a 800W power supply.  Note that I am running the above setup on a 300W power supply.  YMMV, of course -- and I'm not exactly running 4 HDDs or 8 optical drives, but for the average user, don't always exclude 300W PSUs from the running...

    Now I just need a new vidcard.  But I'm waiting for HL2 to do that...
    Logged

    dubss

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #31 on: 18-January-04, 17:01:26 »

    bznotins,  Thanks for the update on the memory.  Its always nice to know if something is going to work before you buy it, especially at the base timing.  Well looks like I can finally get everything ordered.  Thanks again.
    Logged

    diesel_travis

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #32 on: 18-January-04, 18:26:42 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by bznotins
    ...
    Fortron FSP300-60PN 300W Power Supply (specs here)
    ...
    Also what I find interesting is that certain people on this forum get all bent out of shape if you're not running a 800W power supply.  Note that I am running the above setup on a 300W power supply.  YMMV, of course -- and I'm not exactly running 4 HDDs or 8 optical drives, but for the average user, don't always exclude 300W PSUs from the running...
    ...
    Wow!  That PSU is only rated 15a @ 12v!  I was about to order a new one, but i think that my psu (16a @ 12v), should satisfy my specs for now.  Especially since i only have 1 HD, and 1 Optical drive and I don't plan on overclocking in the immediate future.  Still I'll prolly keep my eyes peeled for a sale on a PSU that can handle 20+a @ 12v that is cheap enough for me.
    Logged

    bznotins

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #33 on: 18-January-04, 18:56:51 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by diesel_travis
    Quote
    Originally posted by bznotins
    ...
    Fortron FSP300-60PN 300W Power Supply (specs here)
    ...
    Also what I find interesting is that certain people on this forum get all bent out of shape if you're not running a 800W power supply.  Note that I am running the above setup on a 300W power supply.  YMMV, of course -- and I'm not exactly running 4 HDDs or 8 optical drives, but for the average user, don't always exclude 300W PSUs from the running...
    ...
    Wow!  That PSU is only rated 15a @ 12v!  I was about to order a new one, but i think that my psu (16a @ 12v), should satisfy my specs for now.  Especially since i only have 1 HD, and 1 Optical drive and I don't plan on overclocking in the immediate future.  Still I'll prolly keep my eyes peeled for a sale on a PSU that can handle 20+a @ 12v that is cheap enough for me.

    I should throw out one tidbit though:  This PSU in the old system ran all three rails within almost 0.05% of spec (3.3v ran at 3.28v, etc).  Well, in this new system, the 3.3v and 5v rails are just fine (3.28v and 5.00v) but the 12v is reading 11.7v -- which could be a problem but I haven't seen any manifestation of in in random reboots or lockups...

    I'm saying this just so you get 100% of the info.  It could also just be that this mobo reads the voltage differently than my old one did.  But 2.5% low is a bit curious...

    If things go wonky, I'll go out and get my $8,000 800W PSU but my point is just don't rush out a buy a new one because of testimonials on this board.  Wait until you've confirmed that your PSU won't work!
    Logged

    angler

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #34 on: 18-January-04, 19:06:49 »

    Hey guys, sorry for not posting earlier... I had to go on a trip yesterday at short notice.

    I received the Mushkin Level II RAM on Friday, and benchmarked it into the night.  First off, I found no board incompatibility, although I did have one particular problem which may be recognized as such by owners of other RAM (Corsair, for example).  The DIMMs I received refused to POST at the SPD voltage.  This means that unless I changed the DRAM voltage from "AUTO", the machine would fail to start.  Not only that, but I had to take the following steps (above and beyond simply clearing the CMOS) to solve the problem:

    1) Turn of PSU (good idea, since we're going to clear CMOS and you don't want machine on).
    2) Remove both DIMMs.
    3) Place 1 stick in unused (no. 3) slot.
    4) Clear CMOS with PSU off.

    After this, the machine would POST and boot like normal.  I have never had any memory problems in the past which a simple CMOS clear would not fix... perhaps this situation has caused other memory owners to believe that their RAM is incompatible (or even dead).

    After I got that issue out of the way, I found that the Mushkin RAM would run @ 400 MHz at 2-2-2-5 with 2.7V.  This was a surprise to me, since I was expecting to have to increase the tRCD timing to 3 (at least) to get the memory to run stable and error-free.  Every stick should probably not be expected to run stable at 2-2-2-5 @ 400 MHz.

    To my surprise, there was not much frequency overhead for overclocking, despite the PC3500 specification.  Even at reduced timings and increased voltage, I could not reliably get the RAM to run above a (CPU) FSB of 206 MHz.  Above this (max I tested was 222) the machine would boot, but there were inevitable memory failures.  Unfortunately, with the K8T Neo, you cannot directly alter the frequency of RAM above 400 MHz, so all I could go by was the performance when overclocking the CPU.  Now that I am back, I will continue looking into this issue.

    As for performance, this memory runs as fast as you would expect from 2-2-2-5 RAM.  Actually, it ran slightly faster in every test than old (BH-5) Kingston HyperX memory running at the same speed, which is nice, although the difference was nominal.  It's probably impossible to find good HyperX RAM with BH-5 chips anymore, so the point is moot anyway.

    So, to recap... dual sticks of Mushkin Level II is fast, stable, and (at least for me) oddly incapable of overclocking.  Also, at SPD defaults (including voltage) they produced a situation that looked very much like dead RAM sticks (or a serious chipset incompatibility).

    I just got back... I'll keep checking out new ramsticks as I can get my hands on 'em.

    -Angler

    P.S. - Good luck to all with not blowing out your systems with an underpowered PSU.
    Logged

    jpadron

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #35 on: 18-January-04, 19:25:29 »

    So would you recommend the Mushkin 184 Pin DDR400 PC-3200 Level II ram or do you think you could have had better results with other ram?

    I ask cause I just purchased it and it did cost me $300 so I'd like to know I spent that money wisely... I'm still waititng for some more additional components to put together my pc.
    Logged

    angler

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #36 on: 18-January-04, 20:19:16 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by onnightfall
    So would you recommend the Mushkin 184 Pin DDR400 PC-3200 Level II ram or do you think you could have had better results with other ram?

    I ask cause I just purchased it and it did cost me $300 so I'd like to know I spent that money wisely... I'm still waititng for some more additional components to put together my pc.

    Sure, I would recommend it... I haven't heard of any imcompatibility problems, and it runs (for me) at specification, even on the K8T800 chipset.  Definitely very fast --  it routinely runs faster than other RAM running at the same timings, so we can be confident that the specification is not misleading.  

    The low overclocking overhead of the Mushkin PC3500 surprised me, simply because I had figured that the lackluster overclocking which the 64 has become known for was due to poor RAM compatibility with the chipset (and thus memory bottlenecks).  Although this still may be the case, apparantely buying higher frequency RAM is not a solution.

    Quote
    Originally posted by Uviq3
    Has anyone been able to get 3 512 sticks to work? I can get two, but so far I haven't been able to even boot with 3. I admit my ram is mismatched and not the highest rated (Centon and PNY), but it's working ok at 1Gig.

    After reading your post, I slapped another stick into my system and tried to boot up.  I was combining a pair of Mushkin Lv II with a stick of HyperX BH-5, so although they were mismatched (a potential pitfall), they were both high-end ram, and also used the same memory chips (Winbond BH-5).

    I, too, found that although I could get the system to POST, despite various attempts (clearing CMOS and NVRAM, raising latency, raising voltages) I could never get the RAM to boot.  The Windows boot loader hung up at "giveio.sys" (a driver that governs the parallel port).

    Although I did not try all possible options to get 3 sticks to boot, it is clear that currently the board does not play well with three DIMMs.

    Does anybody have three paired sticks (or at least three sticks with identical model makes and manufacturers)?

    -Angler
    Logged

    bznotins

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #37 on: 19-January-04, 08:02:14 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by angler
    P.S. - Good luck to all with not blowing out your systems with an underpowered PSU.

    Angler,

    I'd appreciate any feedback in the PSU thread.  Trying to make heads-or-tails of this whole PSU issue!

    Thanks,
    Z
    Logged

    Uvig3

    • Guest
    I cant get 3 sticks to work either
    « Reply #38 on: 19-January-04, 12:53:04 »

    The official MSI approved and tested memory modules document does not show any dimms that were tested and approved with 3 sticks of 512M ram.

    This is a big problem.  The MSI K8T NEO-FIS2R is supposed to support up to 2 GIG of ram.  So what works?
    Logged

    CompuPsych

    • Guest
    HardcoreCooling RAM - Good deals but will it work?
    « Reply #39 on: 19-January-04, 13:57:52 »

    I have found http://www.HardcoreCooling.com to have some great deals and it has a good consumer rating, but the MSI MB issues are making me wary.  Has anyone used their memory successfully?
    Logged

    lovendegem

    • Guest
    RE: I cant get 3 sticks to work either
    « Reply #40 on: 20-January-04, 14:33:39 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by Uvig3
    The official MSI approved and tested memory modules document does not show any dimms that were tested and approved with 3 sticks of 512M ram.

    This is a big problem.  The MSI K8T NEO-FIS2R is supposed to support up to 2 GIG of ram.  So what works?

    The K8T only supports two dimms at DDR400. To run 3 dimms you will need to fall back to DDR333 speeds.
    Logged

    CompuPsych

    • Guest
    RE: I cant get 3 sticks to work either
    « Reply #41 on: 20-January-04, 16:14:36 »

    The K8T only supports two dimms at DDR400. To run 3 dimms you will need to fall back to DDR333 speeds.[/quote]

    That's disappointing  :biggthumbsdown:  Usually one expects better performance from adding memory.  Is this a limitation of the MSI board, the chipset, or CPU?

    I wish I had seen the Tom's Hardware report before I bought this motherboard   :undecided:
    Logged

    gnarly

    • Guest
    kingmax 3500 report
    « Reply #42 on: 20-January-04, 19:32:18 »

    Thought some folks might like a report on some cheap ram that's been working for a week or so.
    Kingmax 512, 3500 $77  newegg.  2 sticks slots 1&2. Worked fine on full auto which was @200, 2.5-4-4-16. Worked at 400 with all else on auto, then worked at  2.5-3-3-6, wouldn't boot at 2.5-3-2-6.  memtest86 passed at 2.5-3-3-6.  I think this stuff is in MSI's recommended list.  FWIW
    Logged

    CompuPsych

    • Guest
    Kingmax PC3200 Memory
    « Reply #43 on: 20-January-04, 21:09:58 »

    After seeing the last post I went to Newegg.com to look around and found the Kingmax PC3200 memory listed on the MSI website (MPXC22D-38KT3R).   Although PC3500 for $77 is a better deal, I decided to play it safe and go with the standard PC3200 memory for $74.  

    http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=20-156-006&depa=0
    Logged

    Rytr

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #44 on: 22-January-04, 21:59:57 »

    Saw this thread last week and used it as the basis of my ram purchase.

    I had tried TwinMos PC3700 (43B) and Geil PC4000 with no success in the KT8 NEO.  By no success I mean it would not even boot.  It would stop at initialization of chipset and go no further.

    I tried one 512MB stick of the Mushkin PC3500 Level 1 with basic setup of cpu, ram, CD, HDD, and video card.  Booted right up with no problems.  Installed the second 512 stick with the same results.  Ran Memtest a couple of hours with no errors and Prime to check stability.  Loaded XP, installed sound card...everything stable, smooth, and fast.  Have not got around with tweaking the memory but at recognised default timings of 2.5-3-3-6 everything is very stable.

    Thanks to all for being a source of good info.
    Logged

    diesel_travis

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #45 on: 22-January-04, 22:37:14 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by Rytr
    Saw this thread last week and used it as the basis of my ram purchase.

    I had tried TwinMos PC3700 (43B) and Geil PC4000 with no success in the KT8 NEO.  By no success I mean it would not even boot.  It would stop at initialization of chipset and go no further.

    I tried one 512MB stick of the Mushkin PC3500 Level 1 with basic setup of cpu, ram, CD, HDD, and video card.  Booted right up with no problems.  Installed the second 512 stick with the same results.  Ran Memtest a couple of hours with no errors and Prime to check stability.  Loaded XP, installed sound card...everything stable, smooth, and fast.  Have not got around with tweaking the memory but at recognised default timings of 2.5-3-3-6 everything is very stable.

    Thanks to all for being a source of good info.

    I've been using GeIL since I built my machine without a single problem.  I've ran memtest x86+ through 12 full cycles (several hours) without a single error.  Do you have the latest BIOS?
    Logged

    Rytr

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #46 on: 22-January-04, 22:53:28 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by diesel_travis
    I've been using GeIL since I built my machine without a single problem.  I've ran memtest x86+ through 12 full cycles (several hours) without a single error.  Do you have the latest BIOS?

    No, I do not have the latest bios...just the one preinstalled on the board.  I unfortunately could not post to where I could get into the bios.
    Logged

    jimboy

    • Guest
    Ocz 3200
    « Reply #47 on: 23-January-04, 16:26:26 »

    After getting everthing runing, my 2 sticks of OCZ EL 3200 have been running great. Everything is at default, which was supposed to be 2-3-3-6, but according to MEMTEST86+ and CPUZ the timmings are 2-3-2-6.  I've ran prime95 over the past few nights and everything is good.  It ran MEMTEST for 12 hrs with no errors.  I tried a short bit at overclocking and got it up to 216 x 10, played a few games and ran prime and memtest for a short while with no errors.  I'll have a better chance to fool with it this weekend.
    Logged

    HelpMeDammit

    • Guest
    (No subject)
    « Reply #48 on: 23-January-04, 19:59:40 »

    Logged

    Ex Forum User 3

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    RE: I cant get 3 sticks to work either
    « Reply #49 on: 24-January-04, 08:27:25 »
  • Best Answer

  • Quote
    Originally posted by CompuPsych
    The K8T only supports two dimms at DDR400. To run 3 dimms you will need to fall back to DDR333 speeds.

    That's disappointing  :biggthumbsdown:  Usually one expects better performance from adding memory.  Is this a limitation of the MSI board, the chipset, or CPU?

    I wish I had seen the Tom's Hardware report before I bought this motherboard   :undecided:

    This is not a motherboard limitation, if you read the AMD64 designguide on http://www.amd.com, you will find that the AMD64 can only support 2xDDR400 Unbuffered sticks.
    So if you want to use more, you probably (document doesn't say it) use buffered sticks.
    It has nothing to do with MSI.
    Logged
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