CPU Loadline Calibration Control (LCC) ?

Pixeljunkie

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2022
Messages
52
Hi everyone

I'm running my I9 13900KF at a lower voltage on an MSI Z790 board with the following settings :

  • CPU Core Voltage at 1.300v
  • CPU Loadline Calibration Control (LCC) at level/mode 5
  • BCLK locked at 100MHz
Now, what exactly does level/mode 5 mean ? Does level 1 mean 'agressive' while level 5 is 'mild' ? (It goes up to level 8)
You can check what I mean here @8:40

Also, i'd like to apply the same settings to my son's pc but he has a motherboard from a different brand :)
There, they don't use 'levels' to indicate settings but rather 'normal/standard/low/medium/high' and so forth

Thanks !
 
CPU experiences vdroop (voltage drop) under stress, LLC counters the vdroop so when CPU is under loading, it will not affect the overall stability.
LLC mode 1 offer more vcore compensation than mode 5.
If you just want overall lower vcore, you can play with CPU lite load function rather than LLC. Keep LLC at mode 3 or 4 should be enough.
1700722886214.png
 
CPU experiences vdroop (voltage drop) under stress, LLC counters the vdroop so when CPU is under loading, it will not affect the overall stability.
LLC mode 1 offer more vcore compensation than mode 5.
If you just want overall lower vcore, you can play with CPU lite load function rather than LLC. Keep LLC at mode 3 or 4 should be enough.
View attachment 180956
Thanks for the information, I had never tweaked this before.
In your opinion, would the LLC levels in my son his BIOS (competing brand) correspond to the same settings in my MSI bios ?
eg 'level 5' on MSI corresponds to 'high' on the Aorus

I have attached screenshots of both, they just use different terminology which makes me doubt
 

Attachments

  • aorus llc.jpg
    aorus llc.jpg
    121.1 KB · Views: 3,900
  • msi llc.jpg
    msi llc.jpg
    102.4 KB · Views: 3,378
I don't have GBT system so I cannot compare, but idea of MSI LLC default is to avoid vdroop.
1701052669005.png

This doesn't make sense to me if it's high, i would think it's some line on top?
 
Now, what exactly does level/mode 5 mean ? Does level 1 mean 'agressive' while level 5 is 'mild' ? (It goes up to level 8)

Yes, basically.

Load Line Calibration is the classic remedy against Vdroop, i.e. a sudden drop in CPU voltage when the load suddenly increases, and is used especially when you want to overclock (not that most CPUs are any good for proper overclocking anymore, nowadays OC often just ruins their efficiency further). LLC is to prevent the manually set VCore from dropping too much under load, and the overclocked-or-otherwise-tuned CPU becoming unstable from too much voltage undershoot (or negative overshoot, however you wanna call it). LLC can minimize the voltage differences between idle and load. But if overdone, it can lead to an unnecessary high voltage in idle.

The voltage decreasing under load, that is a normal "feature", meaning it is the normal behaviour, not something that should always be fought against. But if you determined that you need to use LLC (for example when it otherwise becomes unstable with whatever your settings are), then it will work against that sudden voltage drop under high load.

Usually the modes are something like this:

bios-jpg.1066968


The "No OV" is the default curve, that's how the CPU and VRM behave normally. On the X-axis you see the amount of load for the CPU, on the Y-axis you see how VCore behaves. With "No OV", VCore is allowed to suddenly decrease with high CPU load. That is primarily so that when the high CPU load suddenly stops again (as it would), the VRM doesn't keep pumping in lots of juice into the CPU for a split-second and causes the VCore to exceed the specifications. Because the VRM is never as fast as the load changes on the CPU, it always takes a bit of time to adjust to a new load situation, it "oscillates" on any sudden load changes. And when you go back from heavy load to light load, this oscillating VCore - if there was no Vdroop - would make the voltage spike above the specification for the CPU.

This is an illustration from Anandtech about that:

d1D46.jpg


When suddenly going from light to heavy CPU load (which is also called a transient load), there is Vdroop, so that once the heavy CPU load stops, the VCore doesn't spike above spec. In other words, with the "No OV" setting (which should be active when you leave LLC on Auto and haven't touched VCore either), the board will prevent VCore from exceeding spec after transient loads and potentially damaging the CPU over time.

But there can be situations when this Vdroop is not wanted, when you have changed VCore (by whatever means, there's several), and suddenly this Vdroop makes the voltage drop too much under certain load situations. Then you can set LLC to counteract it.

Again looking at the graph from the MSI BIOS, Mode 8 would be minimal LLC, just counteracting Vdroop a little. Then the higher you go, the more it will try to prevent Vdroop. And once you go to Mode 2 or Mode 1, it even overcompensates, meaning now VCore will even shoot up a bit higher with sudden high load, so the normal behaviour is more or less reversed. That would be extreme LLC, there are very few cases where such a behaviour would be needed. Most people will probably stay between Mode 3 and 6, i'd say.
 
Last edited:
Yes, basically.

Load Line Calibration is the classic remedy against Vdroop, i.e. a sudden drop in CPU voltage when the load suddenly increases, and is used especially when you want to overclock (not that most CPUs are any good for proper overclocking anymore, nowadays OC often just ruins their efficiency further). LLC is to prevent the manually set VCore from dropping too much under load, and the overclocked-or-otherwise-tuned CPU becoming unstable from too much voltage undershoot (or negative overshoot, however you wanna call it). LLC can minimize the voltage differences between idle and load. But if overdone, it can lead to an unnecessary high voltage in idle.

The voltage decreasing under load, that is a normal "feature", meaning it is the normal behaviour, not something that should always be fought against. But if you determined that you need to use LLC (for example when it otherwise becomes unstable with whatever your settings are), then it will work against that sudden voltage drop under high load.

Usually the modes are something like this:

bios-jpg.1066968


The "No OV" is the default curve, that's how the CPU and VRM behave normally. On the X-axis you see the amount of load for the CPU, on the Y-axis you see how VCore behaves. With "No OV", VCore is allowed to suddenly decrease with high CPU load. That is primarily so that when the high CPU load suddenly stops again (as it would), the VRM doesn't keep pumping in lots of juice into the CPU for a split-second and causes the VCore to exceed the specifications. Because the VRM is never as fast as the load changes on the CPU, it always takes a bit of time to adjust to a new load situation, it "oscillates" on any sudden load changes. And when you go back from heavy load to light load, this oscillating VCore - if there was no Vdroop - would make the voltage spike above the specification for the CPU.

This is an illustration from Anandtech about that:

View attachment 181196

When suddenly going from light to heavy CPU load (which is also called a transient load), there is Vdroop, so that once the heavy CPU load stops, the VCore doesn't spike above spec. In other words, with the "No OV" setting (which should be active when you leave LLC on Auto and haven't touched VCore either), the board will prevent VCore from exceeding spec after transient loads and potentially damaging the CPU over time.

But there can be situations when this Vdroop is not wanted, when you have changed VCore (by whatever means, there's several), and suddenly this Vdroop makes the voltage drop too much under certain load situations. Then you can set LLC to counteract it.

Again looking at the graph from the MSI BIOS, Mode 8 would be minimal LLC, just counteracting Vdroop a little. Then the higher you go, the more it will try to prevent Vdroop. And once you go to Mode 2 or Mode 1, it even overcompensates, meaning now VCore will even shoot up a bit higher with sudden high load, so the normal behaviour is more or less reversed. That would be extreme LLC, there are very few cases where such a behaviour would be needed. Most people will probably stay between Mode 3 and 6, i'd say.

Amazing explanation, thanks mate 🙂
I'm running the MSI board at mode 5, because i'm undervolting my i9 at 1.300v and was told that when undervolting, sudden drops could lead to instability.
I feel confident now in running the GBT board at 'medium' LLC, should be somehow identical to mode 5 on the MSI if i'm not mistaking (it sits in the middle of the graph).

Thanks for the detailed explanation.."the more you know" :)

aorus llc.jpg
 
I just wish CiTay would be more detailed with his answers, don’t you? Jeez. ;)
LLC = 5 appears to be working well with a 14900KS. But, I don’t think it’s worth going any higher (i.e. 1 - 4). If you want more info on Gigabyte LLC settings, Buildzoid’s youtube channel is an excellent source. His more recent videos are a good place to begin.
 
The screenshots are tested with an ASUS board, so for MSI its the other way around. These screenshots show LLC1 having a lot of Vdroop, while on MSI it's LLC8 with the most vdroop.

I undervolted with a decent amount of lower AC value (40 instead of 110) and a manual undervolt of -0,100. If I'd have LLC Mode8, it would crash during load. If I don't undervolt, I have V-core spikes of 1,48 volt. With LLC Mode 6 I can have the moderate undervolting and it doesnt crash under heavy load. In essence: I can shave off more of the high end of the spectrum without the low end going below stable.

I started to love LLC modes, it's tricky to figure out the values of them, but once you get an educated guess, there is way more room for undervolting in every usage scenario
 
But with LLC mode 8 my idle voltage is too high. I WANT to keep IA CEP enabled
Just in case you haven't found this out yet - you can keep CEP, in fact you can undervolt with all the protections enabled.

Turn off the load line lite and just set your loadline to LLC to 6.

Then sent your core voltage to adaptive - offset and put a minus 0.100 on the P cores and E cores. Then test it a bit. Some processors can go lower some not.

Make sure it is the CPU Core Volateg Mode you are setting the offset for. Not the one labled CPU Core voltage.

It is not possible to lower the VRM max voltage on MSI boards, however on those that you can it triggers CEP because you are adjusting the supply, so the cpu still calls 5.6GHz VID of say 1.46 and you set the supply to 1.4 so the CEP will stretch will clock you down because of this. You can of course set a manual voltage limit, as long as your adaptive - offset ends up being lower than that.

As said above the V droop is controlled by the LLC and it is there to try to keep cpu coltage within limits that prevent crashing.
Setting the undervolt this way informs the cpu that it should expect an undervolt so it will not activate CEP. CEP kicks in when you are cheating an undervolt by lowering the AC Load line. The cpu sees un unusually low voltage compared to the VID request from the cpu and stretches the core clocks to protect itself. This can be seen in HWinfo 64 when you compare the core clocks agains the effective core clocks. You can run something like cinebench to easily see this happening if CEP is kicking in.

Having a mid range LLC is good because it also helps with overshoot, which happens when a high load stops. Above it was mentioned that it can hit the high limit set in the cpu, however at the time that message was written the upper limit was probably over 1.6 volts - so not good. After the microcode updates in the latter half of last year that upper limit is noe 1.5 which still is not good for cpu degredation. There is no reason that you can't acheive full performance from your cpu with the full boost VID being 1.4 volts or lower.

One thing to consider regarding the No OV loadline is that if have very little V droop your end of workload spike will verly likely be shorter the the VRMs V droop compensation after the heavy workload with a large V Droop. It our case with this motherboard it is down to the VRM configuration as we are not alloed to assign the VRM an upper limit. Therefore we have to make a choice between the potential outcomes from big V droop vs a smaller V droop.

The power limits will down clock the cpu and it would be safe to increase those from 253 watts to around 275 ish. However see if you need to do that first, with a decent undervolt the recommended limit will be fine.

I am running a 13700KF at 5.6GHz all P core and 4.2GHz all E core. Loadline Calibration 4 and Advanced lite mode AC 20 and DC 20 (Standard lite mode 4 is AC 20 and DC 80, which just means that the voltage monitoring will be a bit off for monitoring software. such as HWinfo). Adaptive offset -0.100 on P and E cores. With Hyperthreading on (I usually have it off because games just run better on the whole without it) it dancers around the 253W power limit of intel defaults and according to HWinfo max Vcore is 1.294V Without Hyper it is aorund 202W.

Depending on your processor (the OP has a 13900K so will definitly be hitting the default power limit settings if they have my all core clocks, but maybe not a default setup) I believe this is a happy medium and is fully stable with any game and benchmark I can throw at it.


Just undervolt the correct way using proper VID offsets and a sensible LLC. (And limit the VR max voltage if your mother board allows it - I am looking at you MSI! I don't trust intel that 1.5 is fine)
 
Last edited:
Just in case you haven't found this out yet - you can keep CEP, in fact you can undervolt with all the protections enabled.

Turn off the load line lite and just set your loadline to LLC to 6.

Then sent your core voltage to adaptive - offset and put a minus 0.100 on the P cores and E cores. Then test it a bit. Some processors can go lower some not.

Make sure it is the CPU Core Volateg Mode you are setting the offset for. Not the one labled CPU Core voltage.

It is not possible to lower the VRM max voltage on MSI boards, however on those that you can it triggers CEP because you are adjusting the supply, so the cpu still calls 5.6GHz VID of say 1.46 and you set the supply to 1.4 so the CEP will stretch will clock you down because of this. You can of course set a manual voltage limit, as long as your adaptive - offset ends up being lower than that.

As said above the V droop is controlled by the LLC and it is there to try to keep cpu coltage within limits that prevent crashing.
Setting the undervolt this way informs the cpu that it should expect an undervolt so it will not activate CEP. CEP kicks in when you are cheating an undervolt by lowering the AC Load line. The cpu sees un unusually low voltage compared to the VID request from the cpu and stretches the core clocks to protect itself. This can be seen in HWinfo 64 when you compare the core clocks agains the effective core clocks. You can run something like cinebench to easily see this happening if CEP is kicking in.

Having a mid range LLC is good because it also helps with overshoot, which happens when a high load stops. Above it was mentioned that it can hit the high limit set in the cpu, however at the time that message was written the upper limit was probably over 1.6 volts - so not good. After the microcode updates in the latter half of last year that upper limit is noe 1.5 which still is not good for cpu degredation. There is no reason that you can't acheive full performance from your cpu with the full boost VID being 1.4 volts or lower.

One thing to consider regarding the No OV loadline is that if have very little V droop your end of workload spike will verly likely be shorter the the VRMs V droop compensation after the heavy workload with a large V Droop. It our case with this motherboard it is down to the VRM configuration as we are not alloed to assign the VRM an upper limit. Therefore we have to make a choice between the potential outcomes from big V droop vs a smaller V droop.

The power limits will down clock the cpu and it would be safe to increase those from 253 watts to around 275 ish. However see if you need to do that first, with a decent undervolt the recommended limit will be fine.

I am running a 13700KF at 5.6GHz all P core and 4.2GHz all E core. Loadline Calibration 4 and Advanced lite mode AC 20 and DC 20 (Standard lite mode 4 is AC 20 and DC 80, which just means that the voltage monitoring will be a bit off for monitoring software. such as HWinfo). Adaptive offset -0.100 on P and E cores. With Hyperthreading on (I usually have it off because games just run better on the whole without it) it dancers around the 253W power limit of intel defaults and according to HWinfo max Vcore is 1.294V Without Hyper it is aorund 202W.

Depending on your processor (the OP has a 13900K so will definitly be hitting the default power limit settings if they have my all core clocks, but maybe not a default setup) I believe this is a happy medium and is fully stable with any game and benchmark I can throw at it.


Just undervolt the correct way using proper VID offsets and a sensible LLC. (And limit the VR max voltage if your mother board allows it - I am looking at you MSI! I don't trust intel that 1.5 is fine)
Hey mate,

I really like your detailed reply, however, I'm a little confused.

Mine case is Gigabyte board, I'm owning a z790 Aorus Elite AX and an i7 14700k.

My target is maximum 1.27-1.285 volts under full load with 5.5 P cores and 41-42 Ecores.
So far I'm achieving even lover numbers in VID, however, my llc is on ultra extereme and ac dc both put on 1 as Buildzoid showed once on one of his videos. What is bugging me, that the voltage is almost everytime identical regardless of the load, and I believe there's no correct Vdroop due to me setting it incorrectly at the first place.

CPU Core offset is adaptive and is set to -0.100
IA VR Voltage limit is 1.4 (1400)

My question is - is there any other way of achieving my target of maximum voltage and not losing any performance, but having a correct Vdroop as well?

Feel free to ask if there is more info needed.

Thanks in advance.
 
Back
Top