Getting XMP (or something....) to work TRX40 help...

tlhesterj154902d8

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I've got a creator TRX-40 with a Threadripper 3960. I installed some Crucial Ballistix Max memory and could never get it past1599.6mhz.

After reading the certified memory list carefully, I find that the precise memory I got was NOT listed. So, I got some Thermaltake R009D408GX2 and installed two sets of two sticks, for a total of 4x8gb. These appear to be certified. I've got a 1200w power supply decent cooling etc.

I have tried a number of times to use XMP and a few times manually. I get 1599mhz.

What might I be missing? In addition to the XMP button, what else do I also need? (I've tried a few things...)Do I have to do it manually, if so, how?

Any help welcome.
 

tlhesterj154902d8

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Darn it. It looks like I bought yet another wrong set of memory... the first bunch of numbers is good, but I'm not seeing the 2nd. What I have is:
Thermaltake R009D408GX2-4600C19A

I also have (but have since removed):


Crucial Ballistix MAX 4400 BLM2K8G44C19U4B
Jeez, even after getting it wrong once and then "carefully" buying the "correct" memory, it looks like I still got it wrong.
 

citay

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To be honest, that kinda RAM is a mismatch for a mainboard with the TRX40 chipset. The XMP frequency is simply too high, it won't work. The mainboard is the limiting factor here.

RAM with a DDR4-3600 XMP profile would be better, the board should run that comfortably. With DDR4-4400 or god forbid DDR4-4600 you are at the absolute elite limit of what hardcore overclockers can get out of this kinda mainboard, if the moon is right and the stars are aligned, with all sorts of extra voltage. This is not something you can just enable and it runs fine on all mainboards!

You can of course also keep the RAM, disregard the XMP profile, and manually set DDR4-3600 DRAM Frequency and 1.35V DRAM Voltage.

This DDR4-3600 will then be shown in CPU-Z for example as 1800 MHz, because CPU-Z takes "Double Data Rate" literally, and halves the DDR frequency when displaying it. In the BIOS it will say 3600.
 
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tlhesterj154902d8

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To be honest, that kinda RAM is a mismatch for a mainboard with the TRX40 chipset. The XMP frequency is simply too high, it won't work. The mainboard is the limiting factor here.

RAM with a DDR4-3600 XMP profile would be better, the board should run that comfortably. With DDR4-4400 or god forbid DDR4-4600 you are at the absolute elite limit of what hardcore overclockers can get out of this kinda mainboard, if the moon is right and the stars are aligned, with all sorts of extra voltage. This is not something you can just enable and it runs fine on all mainboards!

You can of course also keep the RAM, disregard the XMP profile, and manually set DDR4-3600 DRAM Frequency and 1.35V DRAM Voltage.

This DDR4-3600 will then be shown in CPU-Z for example as 1600 MHz, because CPU-Z takes "Double Data Rate" literally, and halves the DDR frequency when displaying it. In the BIOS it will say 3600.

What specific memory modules might you go for? If I m going to have to use less than the supposed max memory speed, I might consider going with 64gb rather than the 32 I have.

What recommendations do folks out there have for 64gb at a good memory speed? What specific memory sticks??
 

citay

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For 4x 16 GB, the attainable frequency might drop a bit again, because most the 16 GB modules are dual-rank, as opposed to the 8 GB single-rank modules (see my thread).

You could try DDR4-3600 modules, but don't be surprised if you have to set them to DDR4-3200. Or go for DDR4-3200 right away, then you can just enable the XMP setting and it will most likely work.

Corsair, G.Skill and Kingston offer 4x 16 GB kits for example, like:
Kingston HX436C17PB3K4/64 (verified @3600)
Kingston HX432C16FB4K4/64 (verified @3200, single-rank modules! but not the best timings)

Look what is available in your shop of choice, search for it on the QVL, check that it's verified with four modules at 3200 MHz or 3600 MHz.
 

tlhesterj154902d8

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Citay,
In your initial response you had a screen shot with some Thermaltake modules, in later posts you mention going with 3600 as a comfortable speed.... So, I got the memory at the top of that screenshot which is supposedly OK to 3600 and supposedly can have 8 modules. I've installed 8 and asked XMP to work. These are coming in at 1333, not 1800.

Still trying to figure out how to optimize this.
 

citay

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So you got Thermaltake R009D408GX2-3600C18A v.1.1.2? Indeed, they are listed as supported with 8 modules @ 3600.

However, once you populate each memory channel with two modules, you tend to make things worse electrically, so that DDR4-3600 might need some manual optimization. If you read my thread, you will know that using two modules per channel is usually electrically worse than just using one bigger module (dual-rank) per channel .

With the comfortable speed of DDR4-3600, i meant single-rank modules, so something like you had before (4x 8GB modules on a quad-channel platform). This will do DDR4-3600 as you mentioned in your first post. When you are already unable to get above DDR4-3600 with your undoubtedly highly spec'd (4400/4600) original modules, how do you expect getting there easily with double the modules, which puts more stress on the memory system?

I don't know how MSI tested this exactly, but it seems a little dubious that this would easily work on DDR4-3600. Like i said, "don't be surprised if you have to set them to DDR4-3200", and that was for 4x 16GB modules, which in theory is slightly better than 8x 8GB modules.

Do they at least work at DDR4-3200?
 

tlhesterj154902d8

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Citay, thanks for your help and understand that the following semi-rant is NOT aimed at you. YOU are being HELPFUL.

I'm an old geezer. I worked on an IBM System 3 Model 15D in my first major job after high school. Then graduated to IBM 3083, 3081, 3090 and so on. I was online to DARPA in 1980 on a 110 baud acoustic coupled modem. We seem to be in a really weird period when overclockers are setting the "NORM." (I first programmed a home computer in 1979 and first overclocked a processor in 1998).

Back in my day, if you stuck to listed standards, you knew you could make it work somehow. It might take a few weeks to tweak the IRQ's, but memory was just memory. If it was the right kind, it worked, if not it didn't. Now MB manufacturers tout how fast you can run things out of spec. The new norm seems to be whatever they certify will work at speeds greater than standard specs. But don't hold them to it.

Sadly for me, if they say it will work, I expect it will work.

This MB seemed to indicate 4000+ memory (4400 in some advertisements). I accept that I screwed up and bought uncertified memory. Now I have purchased certified memory and expect it to work.

What the hell?

Let overclockers do their thing, but don't advertise that you can run at 4400mhz because some guy in Lower Slobovia did it once for 15 minutes. Advertise that you are rock steady at Xmhz anytime anyone does it. Period. Overclockers can then figure maybe they can do 10%, 20% better.


Again, what the hell? I don't want to overclock anything (I nearly lost my dissertation that way), but they CERTIFY this memory at 3600mhz.

Should the TRX40 maybe be the TRX15?

What can I do to maximize my speed with my new memory modules that clearly do not seem to be willing to work at their "certified" levels?
 

RemusM

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Let overclockers do their thing, but don't advertise that you can run at 4400mhz because some guy in Lower Slobovia did it once for 15 minutes. Advertise that you are rock steady at Xmhz anytime anyone does it. Period. Overclockers can then figure maybe they can do 10%, 20% better.

Again, what the hell? I don't want to overclock anything (I nearly lost my dissertation that way), but they CERTIFY this memory at 3600mhz.
I'm with you, but there are several problems here:

1) Those memory modules are not certified at 3600MHz.
They are rated at 3600MHz.
All the memory modules rated at 3600Mhz use DDR4 chips native at 2933 or 3200Mz.
We're talking about overclocking, overvolting and undertiming here.
Nothing is guaranteed to work!

2) AMD does not guarantee anything above 3200MHz
https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-threadripper-3960x
System Memory Specification : Up to 3200MHz
As you can see, they don't even guarantee 3200 in any condition
Why?

3) there are 4 memory channels for your CPU model.
If you want 64GB of memory you have 2 options: 4x16GB or 8x8GB
So you end up with dual-rank modules or with 2 single-rank modules per channel.
In both cases the max (guaranteed) speed is reduced with 266MHz at least!

4) if the motherboard has been tested to work with memory rated at 4400MHz
and the memory modules have been tested to work at 4400MHz
that doesn't mean your CPU is able to do that.
 

citay

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Yeah, it can be a bit frustrating. But as RemusM alluded to, anything "XMP" nowadays amounts to overclocking, strictly speaking. XMP means "Xtreme Memory Profile", and while being officially supported by the mainboards, the CPU makers often draw the line at DDR4-2933 or -3200 with their officially guaranteed support. Anything above and you're on your own, basically.

Now, the mainboard makers and the RAM makers both want to advertise with higher frequencies, so they each try their best to make that work, and each create QVL lists of combinations that are successful, according to them. But there's still a bit of roulette involved, no two CPUs are the same, and the memory controller is integrated in the CPUs, hence the name IMC. Sometimes a CPU has a strong IMC (more likely on the high-end models) and DDR4-3600 works easily, sometimes you have to turn it down a little (frequency/timings) or turn it up a little (voltages).

This MB seemed to indicate 4000+ memory (4400 in some advertisements). I accept that I screwed up and bought uncertified memory. Now I have purchased certified memory and expect it to work.
From the detail specs: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Creator-TRX40/Specification

Supports JEDEC 1R 2133/ 2400/ 2666/ 3200 MHz
  • 1DPC 1R max speed 4666 MHz
  • 1DPC 2R max speed 4000 MHz
  • 2DPC 1R max speed 4000 MHz
  • 2DPC 2R max speed 3600 MHz
DPC means DIMM per channel, 1R means single-rank (8 GB modules and some new 16 GB modules), 2R means dual-rank (most 16 GB modules and all bigger modules).

You see how using two modules per channel brings down the maximum (one could say, record) attainable frequency by 666 MHz, which is very significant, and so does using dual-rank modules with one module per channel. Combine that and use two dual-rank modules per channel, and the record frequency drops to 3600 MHz. Now, these frequencies are most likely not just from loading the XMP profile, they are attained only with careful manual optimization. So if you don't optimize by hand, substract a few more hundred MHz.
 
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