GT72-2QE 980M Graphics Upgrade

[brettsidford]

Hey everyone I can use whatever help you can give me. I know this isn't a new discussion but I have no real answer to this question from the hours of googling. Can the 980M in a GT72 2QE be replaced with the 1070?

The answer from MSI is that power cooling and card size mean no. Although, the power requirement for the 980M is the same and the cooling in the GT72 VR which carries this card is the same cooling the 2QE has.

NVidea said that the cards are made specifically for the machine they go into and cant be upgraded. I asked if he meant the vbios was specific and he said yes one of the reasons. I don't think he knew what he was talking about. Just putting out the press line that mxm cards are not upgradable because there is no commercially available card for it to be upgraded to [they said a few different things before I suggested the vbios being the problem].

If anyone knows about bios, vbios, motherboard, CPU or any other reason this card might not work on my laptop can you highlight that for me. I'm thinking about selling my 980m and buying a 1070 and wondering if there's a good reason I shouldn't.

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

[davidh]

Hi brettsidford,

No, it's not possible. You need a new motherboard, cooling system, etc. The cooling system of the 2QE and VR are not the same. The GPU chip is in a different location so your heatsink won't line up with it correctly. MSI tried to find a way to offer upgrades because that's what their Marketing Department advertised. But they failed because NVidia made so many changes it wasn't possible. So some buyers were livid when they learned that an MXM swap wasn't possible. That's why MSI came up with its trade-in program for some GT notebooks. Basically, they let you trade in your recent GT for a new one with a 10-series dGPU for the price that they claim the MXM module would cost if you could upgrade it. This isn't such a good deal for some because of the CPU and SSD slots offered (some of the VR models have lesser parts than the previous top-end GT models).

You'll have to contact your MSI representative in a hurry if you want to trade in your notebook. The program was supposed to end last month but they extended it to the end of December in the U.S. I don't know about international locations. Remember, this is a volunteer user-to-user forum. MSI does not participate here.

Kind regards, David

 

[brettsidford]

Hey thanks for your reply.

I'm pretty sure MSI just tell people they can't upgrade beacuase the sales of new gaming laptops is on a downward trend due to their upgrade ability.

Processor, ram and hard drive technology hasn't moved in 2 years so why would anyone need a new laptop?

The 1070 might be too hot to put in a GT72 from what I've read (980m 100w, 1070 120w) but the 1060 runs cooler than the 980m at 80w max, as well as being the same size as the 980m. I don't see any problem with this card working.

Either way I will find out this week as I am replacing the graphics with either a 1070 or 1060. I have found a seller of the 1060 that states it's an upgrade for GT72 so if it doesn't work they can have it back.

 

[davidh]

... I'm pretty sure MSI just tell people they can't upgrade beacuase the sales of new gaming laptops is on a downward trend due to their upgrade ability. ...

Really? And how are you "pretty sure"? It sounds like you don't know what you're talking about and you refuse to accept what experienced folks are telling you.

[quote author=brettsidford]... The 1070 might be too hot to put in a GT72 from what I've read (980m 100w, 1070 120w) but the 1060 runs cooler than the 980m at 80w max, as well as being the same size as the 980m. I don't see any problem with this card working. ...[/quote]

That's because you're not listening. One of the problems all notebook manufacturers have been having is that the MXM "standard" is not a standard at all. With each new GPU architecture, NVidia makes changes that prevent direct upgrades. They locate the GPU in a different place on the MXM circuit board. This was true when going from the 8-series to the 9-series. And it is evidently true again when going from the 9-series to the 10-series. This means a heatsink designed for a 9-series MXM like your 980M will be in the wrong location for the GPU on a 10-series MXM.

[quote author=brettsidford]... Either way I will find out this week as I am replacing the graphics with either a 1070 or 1060. I have found a seller of the 1060 that states it's an upgrade for GT72 so if it doesn't work they can have it back.[/quote]

I hope I'm wrong and it works for you. Please take photos and post them to show the 980M and 1070/1060 MXM cards side-by-side to illustrate if the GPU location on the circuit board is the same. I'm quite certain it is not. But, for your sake, I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

I agree with you that MSI wants users to buy new notebooks on a regular basis. But this MXM stuff isn't MSI's fault. Nor is it a ploy by MSI get you to buy a new model. On the contrary, they claimed that you'd be able to upgrade your MXM and keep your notebook longer. Based on past experience with NVidia, they should have known better than to promise this across different GPU architectures because it has not been true in the past without also replacing parts of the cooling system. In fact, MSI used to include new heatsinks in their MXM kits when users upgraded from an 8-series to a 9-series MXM. MSI deserves all the ill-will it receives for allowing their doofus marketing department to deceive customers over this.

But the fact that the MXM cards cannot be upgraded across different GPU architectures without also making other hardware changes is fully NVidia's fault. NVidia is designing the MXM cards---not MSI.

Kind regards, David

 

[brettsidford]

Although the card fits fine it seems that the motherboard/bios doesn't recognise the card and it's showing up in windows as generic windows adapter and drivers don't recognise it. Not sure if this can be fixed but starting to see why this upgrade can't be done.

The bios has a blank where the graphics card should be although it recognises it is 8GB. And as I said it is technically running in windows as I can switch between it and the intel gpu. But drivers don't recognise it.

 

[brettsidford]

Hey I just wanted to update everyone as to what happened.

I have now successfully installed a 1070 into my GT72 2QE.

When the card was first installed the bios and windows did not recognise the card. From boot the monitor was locked into 63Mhz and the max for mine is 60, resulting in a distorted effect on the screen.

After getting a modified driver the card was recognised in windows and installed fine.

The bios still doesn't recognise the card so on startup you get 3 seconds of distorted msi logo but then it switches to the UEFI briefly which is fine before loading into windows.

The card runs cooler than the 980m almost all the time, the cooling is more than adequate. Although all games now run fine in maximum graphics at 1080p, (with the 980m you can't quite have games on full graphics, often had to tinker round for best results) I'm a little surprised that it won't run Total War Warhammer in 4K without shuttering screen which I'm guessing is poor fps.

MSI could make this card fully compatible with a simple BIOS update and an NVIDIA driver made to pickup on the device ID. They are basically lying to everybody as I suspected and I'm considering legal action now I have proof.

 

[jakub.porebski]

Hey I just wanted to update everyone as to what happened. I have now successfully installed a 1070 into my GT72 2QE. When the card was first installed the bios and windows did not recognise the card. From boot the monitor was locked into 63Mhz and the max for mine is 60, resulting in a distorted effect on the screen. After getting a modified driver the card was recognised in windows and installed fine. The bios still doesn't recognise the card so on startup you get 3 seconds of distorted msi logo but then it switches to the UEFI briefly which is fine before loading into windows. The card runs cooler than the 980m almost all the time, the cooling is more than adequate. Although all games now run fine in maximum graphics at 1080p, (with the 980m you can't quite have games on full graphics, often had to tinker round for best results) I'm a little surprised that it won't run Total War Warhammer in 4K without shuttering screen which I'm guessing is poor fps. MSI could make this card fully compatible with a simple BIOS update and an NVIDIA driver made to pickup on the device ID. They are basically lying to everybody as I suspected and I'm considering legal action now I have proof.

Can you provide some photos/videos/benchmarks?
Would be great if you could share with us.

 

[brettsidford]

Really? And how are you "pretty sure"? It sounds like you don't know what you're talking about and you refuse to accept what experienced folks are telling you.

Clearly they are not experienced, not remotely technical trained. Why would you have that much faith in people? Haven't you figured out yet almost no one knows what they are talking about (including you). I was pretty sure because the staff gave me no specific reason why not, simply saying it won't work (by which they mean if your an amature it won't work) doesn't mean it's true.

That's because you're not listening. [/i]

I pride myself on not being a mindless idiot.

One of the problems all notebook manufacturers have been having is that the MXM "standard" is not a standard at all. With each new GPU architecture, NVidia makes changes that prevent direct upgrades. They locate the GPU in a different place on the MXM circuit board. This was true when going from the 8-series to the 9-series. And it is evidently true again when going from the 9-series to the 10-series. This means a heatsink designed for a 9-series MXM like your 980M will be in the wrong location for the GPU on a 10-series MXM. [/i]

Clearly you have no idea what your talking about. Please refrain from writing any old baseless nonsense that you believe. It's not conducive to people trying to seek actual fact based knowledge.

 

[brettsidford]

Here are some pictures. I used heaven benchmark on ultra. Not done much benchmarking if you want me to do something specific let me know and I'll give it a go.

 

[davidh]

Clearly they are not experienced, not remotely technical trained. Why would you have that much faith in people? Haven't you figured out yet almost no one knows what they are talking about (including you). I was pretty sure because the staff gave me no specific reason why not, simply saying it won't work (by which they mean if your an amature it won't work) doesn't mean it's true.

I pride myself on not being a mindless idiot.

Clearly you have no idea what your talking about. Please refrain from writing any old baseless nonsense that you believe. It's not conducive to people trying to seek actual fact based knowledge.

Hi brettsidford,

Since I have no idea what I'm talking about, please help me. I asked for you to provide photos of the hardware because the MXM circuit boards for the 10-series NVidia dGPUs are very different than their 9-series predecessors. Here are some photos of the standard NVidia MXM layouts for all of the 9-series and 10-series MXM circuit boards. I've scaled the MXM modules the same in the photos so you should be able to see their true relative differences in size, shape and various mounting points.

[attachthumb=1]

As you can see, the location of the 1080, 1070 and 1060 dGPUs on the MXM circuit board with respect to the MXM edge connector has changed compared to a 980M, 970M and 965M. If a 10-series MXM circuit board fits in your GT72 2QE, how did you get the heatsink to fit to the dGPU?

In addition, the two mounting points where the MXM circuit board is secured to the motherboard with two screws are also in different locations with respect to the MXM edge connector. How are you able to secure the 1060 to the motherboard in your GT72 2QE?

Some before and after photos of the hardware are needed to show what you've done. That's why I asked you to provide them in an earlier post. Without them, I guess I'm doomed to be something less than a poor amateur.

But if the photos that we have of these MXM modules are correct (as shown above), then it appears that an upgrade from a 980M to a 10-anything will be impossible without mad modder skills. Do you really think that MSI could make an upgrade kit for this? Wouldn't a proper upgrade require a motherboard and heatsink replacement at the very least?

Please forgive my ignorance. I'm eagerly awaiting your illuminations (with photos). Your talent and skill and grasp of this subject is breathtaking and refreshing. Thanks very much!

Kind regards, David

P.S. I highlighted the heatsink and circuit board mounting points in the above photos with a small green "+" sign.

 

[brettsidford]

The 980m card I had is the one you have pictured. The card I bought (below, also available on ebay, new) is out of a GT73 VR. 

I'm not sure if your being sarcastic but I have posted pictures of my computer turned on. Unless you think I took the sticker off another machine. If you need me to take my back cover off to show you the card in the machine I can.

The card is slightly larger down the one edge but has a purpose built cut out for the bracket to sit in. The extra piece in the top right does not interfere with anything. The heat sink is not identical but with thermal pads it fits fine.

If what you want is help to upgrade your laptop I'd be happy to help.

 

[davidh]

The 980m card I had is the one you have pictured. The card I bought (below, also available on ebay, new) is out of a GT73 VR.  

I'm not sure if your being sarcastic but I have posted pictures of my computer turned on. Unless you think I took the sticker off another machine. If you need me to take my back cover off to show you the card in the machine I can.

The card is slightly larger down the one edge but has a purpose built cut out for the bracket to sit in. The extra piece in the top right does not interfere with anything. The heat sink is not identical but with thermal pads it fits fine.

If what you want is help to upgrade your laptop I'd be happy to help.

Hi brettsidford,

Finally! A photo! Now we can begin to compare apples to apples.

If you examined the photos that I shared in my previous post you should have seen that all of the 10-series MXM modules shown in them look very different from yours. They are much bigger and the dGPUs are located in a different location. Here is a closer view of the front and back of the NVidia GeForce GTX 1070 MXM:

[attachthumb=1]

I hope you can see that this will not work in an MSI notebook that is designed for a 9-series MXM. This is why I wrote what I did. The 1070 MXM shown above is, as I understand it, NVidia's reference layout. In the past MSI has used the reference layouts without modification. I could be wrong, but one reason why I feel confident this is true is because CLEO usually does the same thing and it is sometimes possible to interchanges MXM modules between MSI and CLEO. In fact, many of the MXM modules for sale on eBay are CLEO parts. I've got lots of experience with my GT80 (it has two 980M in SLI) and it would be impossible to shoehorn the above 10-series MXMs into it.

But after seeing your photo, it was obvious that MSI decided to "roll their own" this time---at least for the GT73VR (I don't know about the GT83VR). The MXM module you purchased from eBay is clearly marked as an MSI circuit board (Micro-Star). And it appears to use the same dGPU position and circuit board mounting points as the 980M, 970M and 965M use (they are an MXM 3.0b size). The only difference, as you noted, is that the circuit board of your 1070 MXM is a little larger in some places. Here is a closeup view of a 1070 MXM with a similar circuit board as you purchased:

[attachthumb=2]

I found the above module for sale on eBay and it reveals a very bad thing. First, it appears to be a pre-release "Version 0B" circuit board. Second, it has a jumper wire on the back showing that it had to be "fixed" to work. Who knows what other "bugs" it has. The MXM in your photo appears to be a "Version 1.0" which probably indicates it is a production model. The "very bad thing" here is that some unscrupulous sellers on eBay appear to be selling pre-production models without clearly identifying them as such. Buyers must be very careful.

Your 1070 MXM does indeed appear to be mechanically compatible with the GT72, GT72S, GT73, GT73S, GT80 and GT80S notebooks. The stock heatsinks should fit. Although I would caution most users to use a high-quality thermal compound rather than pads as you did because a good compound will perform better than pads and this will be very important for such high-performance dGPUs. If the pads were necessary because the heatsink mounting surface was not oriented the same as the 1070 dGPU, then I would be concerned about inadequate thermal conductivity in the areas where the heatsink mounting surface does not cover the corresponding area of the dGPU.

By the way, I also tracked down some photos of a 1060 MXM by MSI that is even closer to the 980M, 970M and 965M layout than your 1070 MXM. So I can confirm that MSI has created 10-series MXM modules for the 1070 and 1060 that would retrofit mechanically into a 980M, 970M, 965M notebook. However, I was unable to find an MSI version of the 1080 MXM.

That leaves only two remaining problems to surmount: BIOS and vBIOS. As you've already discovered, the BIOS is a problem and I doubt MSI will do anything to fix it unless they were to offer an "official" upgrade kit. Without official support, we're all on our own. Whether or not vBIOS problems would also exist is anybody's guess. Hopefully you can report it if it is. Perhaps you can get help with that question from NVidia directly.

You've raised some valid questions that I'd like to hear MSI answer. Since they created a 1070 and 1060 MXM that will retrofit into a 980M, 970M or 965M notebook, why don't they support it and provide an upgrade kit for it? Did they create a 1080 MXM that will retrofit as well? Are the bigger DC input circuit and AC/DC adapters necessary if you don't overclock? (My GT80 with two 980M in SLI uses a single 330-watt AC/DC adapter but a GT83VR with two 1080 in SLI uses a dual AC/DC adapter rig that outputs up to 660 watts. That's twice as much electrical power for a dGPU model that is "supposed" to be more efficient!!!)

Kind regards, David

 

[Talon]

David you really are spreading very false information.  The cards you're showing had you done any research at all are Clevo GTX 10  series MXM cards, those aren't the MSI MXM cards.  The card this guy bought is a MSI MXM GTX 1070.  I'm really lost as to how you actually thought those were MSI cards in the first place or that Nvidia makes these cards at all?  Clevo, Dell, and MSI have all made their own MXM cards for some time now and they were all exactly the same other than vBIOS and color of the PCB.  With the 10 series this has changed and there is no longer a "standard" that is followed.  Clevo went very far off the normal MXM format, while MSI seems to have kept it relatively close or the same to past MXM gens.  

Excellent work to the guy that upgraded this GT72 with a GTX 1070.

 

[Mr52]

The 980m card I had is the one you have pictured. The card I bought (below, also available on ebay, new) is out of a GT73 VR.  

I'm not sure if your being sarcastic but I have posted pictures of my computer turned on. Unless you think I took the sticker off another machine. If you need me to take my back cover off to show you the card in the machine I can.

The card is slightly larger down the one edge but has a purpose built cut out for the bracket to sit in. The extra piece in the top right does not interfere with anything. The heat sink is not identical but with thermal pads it fits fine.

If what you want is help to upgrade your laptop I'd be happy to help.

Hey brettsidford I have same laptop, I just logged in to give +1 for you need your help in replacing the GPU on my Laptop as well
can you help us the same laptop owners

 

[ferz93]

Hello guys!
I also have 1070 installed on my GT72 6QD, it works fine but doesn?t support GSync, and with 1070 I can?t overclock my monitor, now it's only 70Hz, with 970m it was 103Hz, original frequency is 75hz.

 

[Mr52]

Hi ferz93

any help in how to replace 1070 where did you get the card and how to replace it.

Thank you

 

[brettsidford]

Hey guys. I could never get g-sync to work on my 980m, so I'm not bothered about it not working on the 1070. Standard V-sync didn't seem to be great with the 980m where as I have no screen tear what so ever with v-sync enabled on games now, with the 1070. Also I don't have frame rates less than 60 so is g-sync entirely necessity? Maybe if your on a 120mhz panel but, don't use that panel.

If the drivers are installed properly you should be able to set your refresh rate to 75 in Nvidia control panel.

I can play every game (SW Battlefront, Dragon Age Inquistion, Total Warhammer) in full 4K on ultra graphics with no problems on my 2 4K TVs (one is 3d, so I don't know if this means v sync would set to 120, or standard 60).

I actually went back and "modified" the heat sync by removing a small piece of metal that fills a gap along the top row of memory. On the 980m there is a gap where the heat sink drops to meet the lower modules, but the 1070 has a full row of memory without a gap. I found the card heated to 86c and a bit jumpy on stress test due to not being flat enough and making proper contact with the GPU. The air coming out the back on the left was very cool for a hot processor which I was concerned about (and the CPU side was much hotter air at the same temps).  Now it doesn't go above 76c and the air ventilated out the back is hot!

The laptop is never running the fans on full anymore, whereas heavy graphics on the 980m would leave your computer taking off for the play. This card is quieter and cooler, and it feels like its never running at maximum, which the 980m always felt like it was pushing things a bit.

I feel like the laptop is ready for gaming for the next few years and I can't wait to find a game it struggles with.

As far as buying 1070 I was lucky enough to get one on eBay taken out of a GT73 VR by a private seller. A similar card is available on eBay from a Canadian seller. If you search 1070 mxm and make sure worldwide is selected. It expensive tho. Maybe you could use collective bargaining to buy a few in a group at a reduced rate.

I should point out that earlier in this post Dave noticed these cards are rev 0, not rev 1 cards msi actually used in there laptops (although they are msi cards) and secondly it has some type of bypass wire going from the front to the back.

However you can ask if it should work in your computer and if it doesn't you can send it back. You can send it back anyway as it completely brand new, and that is normally your right.

If you need a link let me know.

 

[alfredoarreola]

Hello Brett,

Great news! Im from Mexico, we are pretty f*** here, the costumer service is pretty much zero, they not even offer trade in program, so this make me happy.

Would you be kind enough to provide a link? I found one, but Im afraid it wont work

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NVIDIA-GeForce-1070-Notebook-N17E-A2-G2-MS-W10V1-/182332055744?hash=item2a73d660c0:g:95YAAOSwcUBYEtwp

By the way I got a GT72 6QD (with 970m).

Thanks for sharing.

One personal question... is it woth upgrading? or Is it better to buy a new Laptop?

What do you think?

I bought this laptop 10 months ago... but would love 4k gaming and vr... i dont know what to do!

 

[brettsidford]

The answer is yes it is worth it, but how much will it cost?

Mine cost ?460, a 1070 laptop is about ?1999, so it was worth it for me. I sold the 980m on eBay for ?360 so it cost me ?100. Massive improvement for ?100.

That eBay card is expensive though. If you can get a private seller that is upgrading to 1080 you'd be better off.

1060 is also an option for all old cards as the power consumption is so low it would go in pretty much anything. It's size is standard 3.0 MXM so should replace any 9 or 8 series card.

 

[giltheone]

Dang! I just replaced my 970m with a 980m on my GT72 2QD -- some of the MSI software automatically now "believes" my notebook is a 2QE.

I wasn't sure the 1060 would work, but now I realize I should have gone for it. Not that the 980m is a bad card -- by no means whatsoever. But it does get warm (75-76 ?C) when overclocking it, though I am getting the performance of (or at least close to) a 980DT.