Help with BIOS OC settings and CPU advanced features ?

[MclarenF1Fan108]

So I have a Z490 Godlike, 10700K, Coolermaster MasterLiquid 360 AIO. Could someone help me setup the BIOS with a decent configuration. 4.9 - 5.0GHz stable ? I'd like a constant clock speed, no power saving or lowering of the clock speeds.

Should EIST, C State, Speed shift, etc all those be switched off. Also virtualization tech ?

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

That makes sense. The 200mm fans probably pull quite a lot of amps, so each one was placed on a separate header for safety. That's good. This means you'll just have to make sure you change Fan 4 and 5 fan profiles to match. You don't have to, but for easy of setup it will make the most sense.

One thing you still need to find out is whether the fans (and your pump) specifications mention anything about PWM. If you're not sure, you can pull the fan cable off the header and see if it is 3 pin (DC) or 4 pin (PWM). Then you're ready to start fan tuning. You first change the Auto setting to PWM or DC based upon the fan's specification, then enable Smart Fan, then set your fan curve. Repeat for each fan. Again, if you're not sure about the Pump, can't find any better info, then don't go lower than 60% PWM or 7.2V DC for when temps are below 40C, i.e. idle temps.

In regards to fan curves, you can re-read the tips in Citay's guide. Remember, if you're a gamer, then most games will run the CPU between 50C and 60C, with peaks of 65C or 70C max. [This is what I see with my RTX3080 when running 1440P. I have found that Far Cry 5 is a great game for tuning temperatures and general CPU stability testing and is often very cheap to buy.] You'll want the fans curves to maintain good levels of fan and Pump RPM in this temperature range - but only as aggressive as they need to be. There is no real advantage to trying to run the CPU below these levels for things like gaming. It's far better to focusing more on the GPU temps, and component temps, even if that means slowing down your CPU AIO a bit. After dialing in the middle range, you can just lower everything for the idle conditions, and reserve the max-RPM (if there's any capacity left) for above 70C or 80C, which would encompass your synthetic stress tests.

I hope that makes sense to you.

Sorry FlyingScot. I just revised my last post can you re read it ?

Not sure if I was making sense. But I don't have control over all 3 AIO fans separately. They are all controlled through one lead I think. All 3 AIO fans are controlled from the CPU Fan header I think. So all 3 AIO fans go into controller box and then one lead to the CPU FAN header.

 

[FlyingScot]

There are power leads for AIO fans going to a cooler master AIO controller box, same with ARGB leads from AIO fans to controller box and then power lead to mainboard, then a ARGB lead from fan to controller box to mainboard. The front fans connect in the same way except that it has a RGB lead from controller box to the main board. I think the rear fan also connects through the controller box as well.

oooO! That does complicate things. So the pump lead goes straight to the motherboard pump header, but the AIO fan lead(s) go to a control box...and then a lead goes to the CPU Fan header? Is that correct? If so, I would check to see how many pins actually have wires for the cable running from the control box to the CPU Header.

I wouldn't touch the fan curves until you know exact how the fan rpm is controlled by the Control Box. Find any documentation on the control box that you can and study it. One thing to look for is whether the control box has a separate power lead to pull power directly from your PSU, either SATA power or Molex power or PCIe power.

EDIT: It could be that the Control Box only effectively controls the ARGB, with the motherboard headers still controlling fan speed.

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

I can't really tell properly. Took the back panel off and side panels off. This is what I see.

I think the AIO is one lead straight from PUMP to PUMP 1 header on the motherboard. Theres a few wires including a blue wire when i look into the front of my case and look at the top right of teh motherboard, its a thick braided cable, I think its definately 4 or 5 pin.

I think all 3 AIO fans are going through a Noctua 3 way splitter. The lead going into the CPU FAN 1 header on the motherboard is a 3 pin by the looks of it.

Front fans SYSTEM FAN 4 and SYTEM FAN 5 are connected through a 3 pin cable too by the looks of it.

That's all I can tell. The controller box turned out to be a Lian Li Strimer box for ARGB PSU and GPU cables. The rear fan plugs directly into SYSTEM FAN 1. Thats a 4 pin i think. I'm afraid I don't want to go messing anymore. All the wires and cable confuse me.

 

[citay]

What can you gather from this. And what might i need to change. You were asking about temperatures. Well i think the temp recorded are 78/79 C ?

Look closely at your Power Limits as read out by HWinfo, they're at 125W. So you unwittingly loaded some default or something, these are not the 230W power limits you were supposed to set, so no wonder the CPU is staying this cool, and this also explains why it doesn't boost so high.

When you show HWinfo sensors, click on <-> arrows in the bottom left twice first, to expand them to two big columns.

We don't really need to see Cinebench, we need to see all the HWinfo sensors on one page.

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Look closely at your Power Limits as read out by HWinfo, they're at 125W. So you unwittingly loaded some default or something, these are not the 230W power limits you were supposed to set, so no wonder the CPU is staying this cool, and this also explains why it doesn't boost so high.

View attachment 201701

When you show HWinfo sensors, click on <-> arrows in the bottom left twice first, to expand them to two big columns.

We don't really need to see Cinebench, we need to see all the HWinfo sensors on one page.

This is strange. They are set aren't they here in my BIOS screenshot. I just took the screenshot now. But the settings were applied before i ran the Cinebench test in HWinfo.

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Here you go. I think i have all the important sensors here.

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

So I just found something out about my fans I aren't sure about. Should I be able to control the fans when set to PWM but smart fan mode turned off ? Because I can't move the grey pointers ?

I think the PUMP fan is connected to CPU 1 header. Fan is spinning at full speed 2443rpm and when I set it to PWM it goes to that full speed. With smart mode off the points aren't customizable and greyed out. With smart mode turned on the points are blue and are customizable.

I'm thinking now that the 3 radiator fans, the MF120 are connected through a 3 way Noctua splitter, which is 3 pin at the PUMP 1 header. The fans when I set them to PWM, spin full speed 2061rpm. With smart mode off the points aren't customizable and are grey, with smart turned on the points are blue and are customizable.

SYSTEM 1 Fan the rear exhaust MF140R 650-1500rpm is 4 pin and is the only PWM controllable Fan in Auto or PWM mode with Smart Fan mode disabled. And I can control it to its fill speed of 1500rpm.

What worse. The front 200mm Fans won't speed up or down. Whether in PWM, DC or Auto with or without Smart Fan mode. I could raise the voltage and lower it but they weren't changing speed. Also the voltage was already set at 7.20v. One fan constantly spins at 917rpm, while the other 932rpm.

The MOS Fan this is the VRM Fans that spin really fast. 10000rpms. It's set to balanced mode and isn't spinning.

So this really does confuse me some more. I think the conclusion I draw from this is that only one of the fans are PWM controllable except for the MOS Fan which is PWM only.

 

[citay]

Here you go. I think i have all the important sensors here.

Run Cinebench and show HWinfo afterwards, we need to see if it goes enough above 125W to where those limits in HWinfo are just a readout issue, or what is going on.

As for the fans, check if they're 3-pin, then they are voltage-controlled (DC), or 4-pin, only then can they be PWM-controlled. If you try to use PWM control on a 3-pin fan, it will just get the full 12V and run at full speed.

The radiator fans can be on a splitter cable, that's ok. With Smart Fan disabled, you only get a single setting, not a fan curve anymore. Basically you can set a fixed speed with it off. Which is not what we want to use, every fan should be on a fan curve where possible.

In the BIOS, the fan curve should be such that the fans are below 500 RPM if they can manage it (the CPU should be quite cool in the BIOS). Full speed or close to that is only necessary when the CPU gets really hot. And the two in-between points of the curve are as shown in my fan curve guide.

The two front fans, physically look inside your case where their cables are going to. Maybe they are some kind of cable where they only report their RPM to the board, but the power comes from elsewhere, because they knew these big fans might otherwise overload some boards' fan headers.

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Hello Citay. Hope you doing ok. I'm running CB now and have the HWinfo Sensors across 3 pages together. However CPU doesn't go over 80 Celsius and it's stayed at 4.8GHz throughout the test. There are power readings for the CPU package power, however PL1 and PL2 still read (Static) 125W. I've uploaded the screenshot below.

I noticed that since the bios update, MSI has an auto install option for MSI Centre. After doing the BIOS update the OS prompts MSI to run the installer. It did and there was a newer version and updates. The User scenario was set to balanced so I changed it to extreme. I turned AI engine off. I noticed there is a newer version of the cooling wizard now and it gave me a few options, option 1 to Follow MSI Centre mode, BIOS Mode or Customize. I left it at BIOS Mode.

I noticed an error in MSI hardware monitor. It's got the correct CPU Frequency, but the CPU temps were reading 31 Core and 31 Socket, CPU Fan 1 17%, when the little OLED screen on my Board and HWinfo read 7X Celsius running Cinebench. All fans at full speed and it's not loud not to me anyway. Seeing as the fans don't go over 3X dBA.

I don't know how the big fans are powered or what the guys when they built my system plugged them into. I know they are plugged into the SYSTEM 4 and SYSTEM 5 headers on a 3 Pin lead. OK. So isn't the PUMP lead from the AIO Cooler a black, yellow, green and blue wire ? If so that lead is braided and is plugged into the PUMP 1 header. Is this multi coloured wire lead also powering the 3 ML120 AIO fans ? I found a similar thread here https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?...360l-argb-v2-62-cfm-liquid-cpu-cooler.389692/ Then whatever is plugged into the CPU FAN 1 header is a 3 pin. This must be the small thin lead coming out from the CPU block itself ?

The only Fan that is PWM is the rear exhaust 14CM MF140R which is plugged into the SYSTEM FAN 1 header and is a 4 Pin, 650-500rpm 90CFM fan. Are you saying I may need to set most of the fans to DC control then turn on Smart Fan and set the fan curves that way ?

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Having just re read what you told me i'm a little confused. The 3 radiator fans are going through this 3 way splitter with blue green yellow and black wires going into my PUMP 1 header. It's a PWM 3 way Splitter. The manual for my Z490 Godlike states PUMP 1 header is PWM capable upto 3A 36W. Well 3 fans on this lead and each only use they say upto 0.36A. All 3 Fans are not exceeded the Headers Power limit.

Heres why a d what I don't understand. Then in the BIOS, when I click on PUMP 1, if I set it to PWM, I can't control the fan curve, the grey dots are not movable unless I enable Smart Fan Mode.

Now with the rear exhaust fan which is going into the SYSTEM FAN 1 header, this is 4 Pin and seems to actually be PWM capable aswell.

Here's why. Then in the BIOS, when I click on the SYSTEM 1, if I set it to PWM, I can control the fan via one red dot, with Smart Fan Mode disabled. Ok so why can't I do the same with the PUMP 1 radiator AIO Fans ? Why do I have to enable Smart Fan Mode just to control the Fans.

I don't have to enable Smart Fan Mode for the 4 Pin PWM exhaust fan.

 

[citay]

I noticed that since the bios update, MSI has an auto install option for MSI Centre. After doing the BIOS update the OS prompts MSI to run the installer. It did and there was a newer version and updates. The User scenario was set to balanced so I changed it to extreme. I turned AI engine off. I noticed there is a newer version of the cooling wizard now and it gave me a few options, option 1 to Follow MSI Centre mode, BIOS Mode or Customize. I left it at BIOS Mode.

I don't use MSI Center. Don't change things to Extreme/Ultimate all the time when you don't know what they're doing. MSI Center is another thing that is known to cause high power draw for no reason when you change certain settings. So leave it on Balanced, same as the power plan in Windows. In fact, setting Extreme in MSI Center might have set your power plan to something other than Balanced again...

I noticed an error in MSI hardware monitor. It's got the correct CPU Frequency, but the CPU temps were reading 31 Core and 31 Socket, CPU Fan 1 17%, when the little OLED screen on my Board and HWinfo read 7X Celsius running Cinebench. All fans at full speed and it's not loud not to me anyway. Seeing as the fans don't go over 3X dBA.

You mean in the BIOS or on MSI Center? Forget MSI Center for monitoring, use HWinfo only.

Are you saying I may need to set most of the fans to DC control then turn on Smart Fan and set the fan curves that way ?

Well, i wrote my fan curves guide, it's all in there. Only if you have a 3-pin fan does it have to be voltage-controlled (via DC). If it's a 4-pin fan (or water pump, whatever), then you should be able to use PWM control. A fan curve should always be used for all the fans in your system. Fans that are on a fixed speed are not that useful. The PC has vastly different cooling/airflow requirements between idle vs. full load.

If the 3 radiator fans are going through that 3 way splitter with blue green yellow and black wires going into my PUMP 1 header, is this 4 pin lead really PWM capable ?

Yes. The 3-way splitter will take the RPM signal from one fan only. But it will send out the PWM signal to all attached fans. So while you don't see the RPM speed of the individual fans, they will be roughly at the same RPM anyway, receiving the same PWM signal to tell them how fast they should spin.

The manual states it is PWM capable upto 3A 36W. Well 3 fans on this lead. Are they going over that which is why PWM doesn't work ? Or what is happening ?

One fan draws maybe between 0.5W to 5W. So the three fans are fine on one 3A header.

Here why. Then in the BIOS, when I click on PUMP 1, if I set it to PWM, I can't control the fan curve, the grey dots are not movable unless I enable Smart Fan Mode.

Naturally. Smart Fan is the fan curve. Without Smart Fan, you have a fixed speed, no curve.

Here's why. Then in the BIOS, when I click on the SYSTEM 1, if I set it to PWM, I can control the fan via one red dot, with Smart Fan Mode disabled. Ok so why can't I do the same with the PUMP 1 Fans ?

Not quite sure. But your fan curves are not done very well yet. Way too little difference in RPM between idle and full load. Your CPU temps vary betwen 26°C and 83°C, yet a lot of your fan speeds don't respond that well to this huge delta.

For my, the fans (all of them) are at the lowest they can go in idle, which for good fan models is around 400 RPM, maybe 500 RPM. Then slowly ramping up with higher CPU temperature, and heating the peak at 90°C (not that my CPU can reach that, my CPU model is too frugal and my cooler is too good).

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Ok. I'll leave the MSI Centre on balanced. I'll check the Windows Power Plan hasn't been changed.

The MSI Centre, the Hardware info was reading the wrong CPU temperatures. Ok I won't use it.

I still need to keep the Cooling Wizard to BIOS Mode though right ? Otherwise MSI Centre might override what I have set in my BIOS.

The 3 pin lead for the CPU block PUMP and Fan, on CPU FAN 1 header. Is this to be set to PWM or DC ? It spins as high as 2448rpm, higher than the AIO radiator Fans.

I'll follow your guide and see if I can set the PUMP (AIO radiator Fans) and rear exhaust fan percentages to something similar to what you have.

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Hello guys, strangely last nigt HWinfo started reading and reporting the PL1 PL2 settings correctly from 125 to 260. The only changes i made are the following in no particular order because i was messing with various settings at different times:

At some point changed BIOS All Core to Per Core. This is the setting used to record the Benchmark and screenshot i gave you yesterday. But at that point the PL1 and PL2 were still recorded wrong 125 static.

At various times i was changing the MSI Centre Power plan. Was orginally at High performance before you told me to keep it at balanced. I think i changed it to customize at one point but changed it back to balance. Also turned the the software control mode on or off a time or two at some point. Went into Cooling wizard but never changed much it stayed at BIOS Mode most of the time. It's still at that setting.

I remember going back into Windows power plan and defaulting it once at some point when the MSI Centre was changed to balance or customize or vice versa. And i dson't know when and at which point.

The only other thing i did was create a fan curve in the BIOS for the PUMP fan, radiator fans, and rear exhaust fan. Could this have prompted the Power Limits from HWinfo to be reported properly from my BIOS now ?

Something i did but i don't know what. HWinfo reports 260W in the PL1 and PL2 now. OK. Should i uninstall MSI Centre User scenario and AI engine features. I can keep the Cooling wizard and all other features ?

My fans are at 650rpm and the PUMP fan is around the same. I guess this explains why my temps have gone back up to 48 - 50 Celsius. The BIOS is back to All Core Dynamic Mode.

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Ok. I figured it out what is causing the HWinfo to incorrectly report the wrong PL1 PL2 settings. After a reboot from some AMD privacy update, i opened the HWinfo and the PL's were back to 125. So I turned off MSI balanced mode. Went into Windows Power plan and change from balanced to high performance then change it back to balanced.

I defaulted the balanced power plan. Re opened HWinfo and its reporting 260 correctly. The MSI CPU FAN switch for software control is still turned on. I don't know if MSI utility User scenario is on boot up turning balanced mode back on or not. I'm going to reboot the PC and see if MSI turns on its balance mode. In which case i'll have to turn it off. Again.

EDIT: Rebooted and open HWinfo still reporting proper PL's. MSI Centre didn't turn its Balanced Mode back on. I'll keep a check on it though. Looks like finally getting somewhere.

I'm going to follow you Fan curve guide again. Because CPU is still running hot 45 - 46 - 51 Celsius even back in BIOS All Core Dynamic Mode, It should be running in the 30's right ? idle in windows basically only typing this post web browsing.

I suspect the cause is the CPU 1 Fan or CPU PUMP fan is too low a rpm. So the water ins't flowing as fast. It's reporting sometimes 0 then sometimes 8XX rpm range That's because of the fan curve trying to set the PUMP too low but the CPU 1 PUMP fan i don't think it really gets loud ?

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

I decided to take some Fan curve screenshots. I'll upload them below. I also decided to change Per Core frequencies from 50 and 51 on last two cores, 35c idle in Windows. I've dropped ratios down to 49 and 50 last two cores, 31c idle now. I dropped the Ring ratio from 45 which it's always been at to 44.

Now that my PL are reporting properly in HWinfo. I can do a Cinbench 24 multicore test soon. And i'll have the HWinfo screenshots for you to see whats going on there. Now i need your opinion again on which is the best CPU ratio method. At least Per core allows me to set ratio for all cores but still have dynamic switching frequencies.

I guess this is the most popular and recommended setup ? Here are the Fan Curve screenshots. As you can see i wasn't sure where to place CPU 1 CPU PUMP fan. If it's too low the temps go up a few degrees. I don't know what the ideal voltage rpm is for this particular AIO coolers CPU PUMP fan. Your examples and guide are with a non CPU AIO Cooler.

When is the best time to take a HWinfo screenshot for Cinebench 24 ? Also benchmark just finished. Below i've added 2 HWinfo screenshots. I took the first HWinfo screenshot around the halfway mark of the 10 min test. I took the second near the end of the benchmark. Please tell me what do you make of these findings ?

Thanks

Jamie

 

[citay]

Something i did but i don't know what. HWinfo reports 260W in the PL1 and PL2 now. OK. Should i uninstall MSI Centre User scenario and AI engine features. I can keep the Cooling wizard and all other features ?

If you set the fan curves successfully in the BIOS, then you don't need additional MSI Center functionality. As i said, i never use it at all, the only thing it's good for is controlling RGB, in my opinion. For the rest, you're either better off setting it in the BIOS, or not using it at all.

I'm going to follow you Fan curve guide again. Because CPU is still running hot 45 - 46 - 51 Celsius even back in BIOS All Core Dynamic Mode, It should be running in the 30's right ? idle in windows basically only typing this post web browsing.

Depends on the power draw. If "CPU Package Power" is under 10W (like it should be for any Intel CPU in idle), then it would be quite high. But if the power draw is not so low for some reason, it might be as expected. But later you report mid- or low 30°C, that's sounds about right for idle.

As for your fan curves, System4 and System5 fan should also be on a fan curve (meaning, enable Smart Fan for them as well). Or are those the ones you can't control, no matter what you try?

The rest of the curves seem decent. Even for CPU1, when we assume that this is the water pump. Cause you're right, you want the coolant to always circulate a bit, no need to completely turn it down in idle.

As for HWinfo, the CPU doesn't seem to enter the deeper power-saving states, VCore stays pretty high and lowest power draw is around 17W, normally it should be a third of that, if all power-saving mechanisms were fully active. It's not the end of the world, but it's a sign that there's still room for tuning regarding the BIOS settings and/or power plan stuff.

I would uninstall MSI Center altogether, it's only meddling with the configuration if you ask me. "Too many cooks spoil the broth".

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Hi Citay and FlyingScot. I have some news for you. For a while now I've been thinking about treating myself to a new dream pc. I don't usually upgrade for 4 or 5 years at least. I've never stayed current always keeping my PC's for a long time. As you can see I have the Z490 Godlike.

Well i have learning disability and autism and severe social anxiety. These are my conditions. I'm a stay at home person with my Mum who needs looking after, she has a lung disease, I don't drive smoke or drink.

I don't spend my money on anything else other than save it and try to pass everything down to family, TVs, mobile phones. So I've decided to splash out some of my savings on some new parts. It's for Gaming.

I have a lot of time since I'm home all the time. Spare time when not helping my mum. I love to play simulation games. Of course I'm 42 and a big kid. But I've always liked to have these best stuff I could afford if I could afford it. I always save my money.

I'm a bit of a geek for high end pc gaming. I used to build my own computers, and I have some knowledge from taking up a career as School IT Technician for several years. I was a hardware support technician. I've got a 2019 LG E9 OLED TV in my bedroom that my gaming computer is connected to.

But being diagnosed with my autism I have changed quite a lot as I get older and it's harder for me to think properly and think straight. In some ways this is therapy but is also stressful. I do get stressed a lot.

Anyway the last time I tried to build a computer I was getting stuck with all the RGB and cables management from Coolermaster. So I had this last computer - parts my mum bought me built by a computer shop.

I will need a computer shop to build the new one for me but I will also probably need some help in other MSI forum threads here. If your wondering what parts I have bought and haven't bought yet this is my list.

MSI X870E GODLIKE - Bought for the DD3 display, the RGB and built in hardware monitor display, and all the features.

Arctic Liquid Freezer III 420mm A-RGB AIO Cooler - Bought. For the best cooling of the hotter running AMD Ryzen processors.

G.SKILL Trident Z5 Neo RGB Series (AMD Expo) DDR5 RAM 48GB (2x24GB) 6400MT/s CL32-39-39-102 1.35V Desktop Computer Memory UDIMM - Matte Black (F5-6400J3239F24GX2-TZ5NR) I bought this after watching Game Tech Reviews on buying 4 sticks because it looks nice. They are single rank not dual.

That's the parts bought so far. If you could give me some advice too whether I've made a good decision on the DDR5.

Other parts list on my buying list are below.

AMD 9800X3D, 9900X or 9950

CoolerMaster HAF 700
CoolerMaster Mobis 120 upgrade over Coolermaster sickle flow for rear exhaust
Mobis 140 or MasterFan MF140 Halo² for upgrade to Arctic AIO radiator fans. Push more static air.
A powerful Seasonic PSU
Samsung 990 Pro/Evo 1 or 2TB for OS
Samsung 990 Pro/Evo 2TB for Games
Maybe another 1 or 2TB drive to fill the 4 of 5 MSI M.2 slots.

Lian Li Strimmer Cables for ATX and GPU.

This is my planned build list so far. I really hope you will continue to help me as you have so far. Please let me know if I should be writing all this in a different forum threads or writing a new. I appreciate all the help you guys have provided me upto this point.

 

[citay]

Well, if you want help with your new system, open a new thread for it, yes. Surely we can continue to help there. But it looks like you're still in the planning/building stage.

I can always recommend this video for building a PC, it covers most basics:

 

[MclarenF1Fan108]

Where is the ideal forum to open a new thread for the new pc build ? MSI AMD or MEG Gaming motherboards ? Or somewhere else ?

 

[FlyingScot]

Where is the ideal forum to open a new thread for the new pc build ? MSI AMD or MEG Gaming motherboards ? Or somewhere else ?

That’s a really good question. The AMD related topics appear to be spread across those two forums.

Unfortunately, the last time I built an AMD system, it was shortly after the wheel had been invented. I’m also much more of a budget computing kind of guy - I guess that’s because I’m a Scot at heart. So I’m not going to be much use when it comes to all those premium components. RGB is also not really my thing, either. But not to worry. I’m confident that there are lots of experienced users in the two forums you mentioned.

I guess my biggest advice for you is to not jump into that ”new tech” pond until you start to see a clear trend of maturing BIOS releases. In my opinion, there are simply too many low-level incompatibles at present. And I’m sure that you don’t want to add any more stress to your life if you can avoid it. Hopefully, the shop you get to build your new system will be both competent and a great resource for the life of the system.

In regards to you AIO choice, make sure it is compatible with the latest MSI motherboards. The Arctic LF3 is an odd animal compared to the previous gen. Check the Arctic website for more details.