How to setup Raid 0 of 2 x SSD on my H410M-A PRO (MS-7C89)

DoinitSideways

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Hi guys,

I tried to follow the setup guide for intel motherboards i found from MSI on a google search, but i dont have the first step which is the OS setting???

Can i setup RAID 0 on this board to do a fresh install of Windows 11???

BIOS Version 1.90 (11/05/2021)

I tried the next step of selecting EUFI, but i get a GOP error and it reverts back to CSM
graphics card is a Radeon RX 580 Series
onboard graphics is the intel UHD 630
cpu i5 10400
 

citay

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To get rid of the GOP error, i'm afraid you most likely have to flash your RX 580 BIOS/firmware to another version where the GOP is implemented properly.
Here is a collection of RX 580 firmwares: https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios...el=RX+580&interface=&memType=&memSize=&since=

You can find several people who had GOP errors on RX 500-series cards, which only went away after flashing the card's firmware.
But beware, if you flash a firmware that's not suitable, you could brick the card. So read up on it carefully.

With the motherboard's BIOS set to UEFI mode, it always requires the graphics card to have a GOP (Graphics Output Protocol driver). It seems that on some RX 500-series cards they have messed this up somehow, i have seen some examples like here, https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?threads/graphics-output-protocol.369201/#post-2091095

Not using UEFI mode would create another problem: Windows 11 doesn't want the BIOS in CSM/Legacy mode, it wants it in UEFI mode.

However, your original question, about the RAID0, that should be the least of your worries. RAID0 will improve the speed in benchmarks, the linear thruput will be higher of course, but in reality there is not much left of that. The renowned German "c't magazine" tested an NVMe RAID0 with four SSDs on a Threadripper workstation, and while the measured thruput increased massively to 14.6 GB/s, in real-life applications it wasn't any faster than a single fast Samsung 980 Pro. The article is in German and behind a paywall, but i have the magazine and i've read it in full. It has to do with access times and where the bottlenecks really are as to why it can't be much faster in real-life tasks.

Add to that the fact that RAID just has a tendency to create all sorts of problems along the way with the BIOS setup and so on, i read it regularly on this forum. So nowadays, especially with SSDs, a RAID delivers no tangible benefit, but can result in some clear disadvantages. That's why i do not recommend using it anymore.
 

DoinitSideways

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To get rid of the GOP error, i'm afraid you most likely have to flash your RX 580 BIOS/firmware to another version where the GOP is implemented properly.
Here is a collection of RX 580 firmwares: https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios...el=RX+580&interface=&memType=&memSize=&since=

You can find several people who had GOP errors on RX 500-series cards, which only went away after flashing the card's firmware.
But beware, if you flash a firmware that's not suitable, you could brick the card. So read up on it carefully.

With the motherboard's BIOS set to UEFI mode, it always requires the graphics card to have a GOP (Graphics Output Protocol driver). It seems that on some RX 500-series cards they have messed this up somehow, i have seen some examples like here, https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?threads/graphics-output-protocol.369201/#post-2091095

Not using UEFI mode would create another problem: Windows 11 doesn't want the BIOS in CSM/Legacy mode, it wants it in UEFI mode.

However, your original question, about the RAID0, that should be the least of your worries. RAID0 will improve the speed in benchmarks, the linear thruput will be higher of course, but in reality there is not much left of that. The renowned German "c't magazine" tested an NVMe RAID0 with four SSDs on a Threadripper workstation, and while the measured thruput increased massively to 14.6 GB/s, in real-life applications it wasn't any faster than a single fast Samsung 980 Pro. The article is in German and behind a paywall, but i have the magazine and i've read it in full. It has to do with access times and where the bottlenecks really are as to why it can't be much faster in real-life tasks.

Add to that the fact that RAID just has a tendency to create all sorts of problems along the way with the BIOS setup and so on, i read it regularly on this forum. So nowadays, especially with SSDs, a RAID delivers no tangible benefit, but can result in some clear disadvantages. That's why i do not recommend using it anymore.

Citay...LEGEND!!!

That has to be one of the most informative and helpful replies i have ever had on any forum. So thank you in advance for your time and effort.

I upgraded to windows 11 from 10 and it was so clunky i rolled back... since then i have updated the BIOS to 1.90 (which evidently was to support Win11), upgraded ram from 16gb to 32gb and i installed an M2SSD thinking they were faster then my samsung evo 840, but it was comparable... so i started the RAID train of thought... but given your above comments, i think ill give that a miss.

I have updated the RX firmware now and the card is still working, i have also updated the BIOS to EUFI, but now i cannot load the bios anymore. Boots into windows fine, but whenever i hit delete on startup the screens are blank. The keyboard still appears to be alive (caps and num can be turned on and off), but nothing on either display (one if on the internal GPU and the other on the RX).

So im not comfortable with doing a clean windows 11 install until it is running correctly on windows 10. Or does BIOS just not load because it doesnt get run anymore???
Screenshot 2021-12-04 065150.jpg


Any tips on why i may not be able to get into BIOS now without blank screens?

Cheers,
Josh
 

citay

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You're welcome, i'm always glad when i can help!

With an M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD, you essentially have removed most remaining bottlenecks from the SSD side of things, you can't make it much faster after that. Usually the SSD is accessed for short bursts at a time and then the PC is busy with other things, like processing the data it just loaded. Even a SATA SSD already gives you fast access times and reasonable transfer rates. A PCIe NVMe SSD does the same things much better in isolation, but the PC is still a complex back-and-forth between all the components, so it gets a bit watered down in the end. Of course, with a nice PC, you always want to use a PCIe NVMe SSD nowadays, they're not that much more expensive either anymore.

About the BIOS, it could be that you're actually in the BIOS, but it's just not showing on that graphics output. Try all the graphics outputs you have, and even different cables for the same output if you can. Or connect a second monitor if you have one. I've had it before on a test setup where the BIOS was only shown on HDMI or DVI, and for Windows it was the other way around, so i actually had to connect both HDMI and DVI to the same monitor, and then switch the input on the monitor to see either the BIOS or Windows.

As for Windows 11, it's still at an early stage. Windows 10 will get updates for another four years, so you can wait it out on Win10 for some time. No need to rush.
 

DoinitSideways

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You're welcome, i'm always glad when i can help!

With an M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD, you essentially have removed most remaining bottlenecks from the SSD side of things, you can't make it much faster after that. Usually the SSD is accessed for short bursts at a time and then the PC is busy with other things, like processing the data it just loaded. Even a SATA SSD already gives you fast access times and reasonable transfer rates. A PCIe NVMe SSD does the same things much better in isolation, but the PC is still a complex back-and-forth between all the components, so it gets a bit watered down in the end. Of course, with a nice PC, you always want to use a PCIe NVMe SSD nowadays, they're not that much more expensive either anymore.

About the BIOS, it could be that you're actually in the BIOS, but it's just not showing on that graphics output. Try all the graphics outputs you have, and even different cables for the same output if you can. Or connect a second monitor if you have one. I've had it before on a test setup where the BIOS was only shown on HDMI or DVI, and for Windows it was the other way around, so i actually had to connect both HDMI and DVI to the same monitor, and then switch the input on the monitor to see either the BIOS or Windows.

As for Windows 11, it's still at an early stage. Windows 10 will get updates for another four years, so you can wait it out on Win10 for some time. No need to rush.
Well, i just wanted to tell you I appreciate the help... i studied IT along with civil engineering, so i used to know alot about PC's, but i decided to become a builder and now i use my PC to serve plex to the household and on occasion ill play a game... but its mostly just the data hub of the household that i try and update every few years to it can transcode media to the many devices around the home.

AHUH!, i just learnt a valuable and now expensive lesson... The M.2 drive i bought is still SATA... so ill have to get an nvme one and then install my fresh install on that. Perhaps something like the 'Silicon Power 1TB P34A80 Gen3x4 TLC R/W up to 3,400/3,000 MB/s PCIe M.2 NVMe SSD'????

I have a monitor hooked up to both GPU's... the radeon im using the DVI output and the intel gpu is HDMI... Given i can ctrl/alt/del and the system reboots after i hit delete for bios, im safe to assume you are correct, the bios is open, i just cant see it.... Ill need to fiddle around here and find out whats going on... both my monitors are ancient (10+ years old), the inputs are limited, and as i dont really care about the resolution on my PC, i just use the dual monitors for data entry, ive never bothered to upgrade them.

Cheers,
Josh
 

citay

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IT knowledge is always good, however, the technology is in a constant state of flux, so if you don't keep up with the developments, certain knowledge can become less and less valuable. But it's good to have a general understanding of a lot of IT things nonetheless.

About the SSD, that's a common mistake that people make when buying one, if they're not so well-informed about the differences. They'll automatically assume that because of the M.2 form factor, they're getting a huge speed improvement over 2.5" SATA drives, but those M.2 SATA drives actually use the same transfer protocol with the same limitations, just without a cable. M.2 PCIe NVMe SSDs are a whole different beast altogether. They use the much faster PCIe bus, together with the NVMe transfer protocol which was designed from the ground up for the capabilities on an SSD.

My recommendation for that would be the Samsung 970 EVO PLUS. Tried and tested, a top performer, and doesn't break the bank.

Yeah, i think you definitely need to try other graphics outputs, you should find that the BIOS is displayed on one of them.
 

DoinitSideways

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IT knowledge is always good, however, the technology is in a constant state of flux, so if you don't keep up with the developments, certain knowledge can become less and less valuable. But it's good to have a general understanding of a lot of IT things nonetheless.

About the SSD, that's a common mistake that people make when buying one, if they're not so well-informed about the differences. They'll automatically assume that because of the M.2 form factor, they're getting a huge speed improvement over 2.5" SATA drives, but those M.2 SATA drives actually use the same transfer protocol with the same limitations, just without a cable. M.2 PCIe NVMe SSDs are a whole different beast altogether. They use the much faster PCIe bus, together with the NVMe transfer protocol which was designed from the ground up for the capabilities on an SSD.

My recommendation for that would be the Samsung 970 EVO PLUS. Tried and tested, a top performer, and doesn't break the bank.

Yeah, i think you definitely need to try other graphics outputs, you should find that the BIOS is displayed on one of them.
I can get the 970 EVO Plus and the plain 980 for the same price (both 500gb)... which would be your pick?
IT knowledge is always good, however, the technology is in a constant state of flux, so if you don't keep up with the developments, certain knowledge can become less and less valuable. But it's good to have a general understanding of a lot of IT things nonetheless.

About the SSD, that's a common mistake that people make when buying one, if they're not so well-informed about the differences. They'll automatically assume that because of the M.2 form factor, they're getting a huge speed improvement over 2.5" SATA drives, but those M.2 SATA drives actually use the same transfer protocol with the same limitations, just without a cable. M.2 PCIe NVMe SSDs are a whole different beast altogether. They use the much faster PCIe bus, together with the NVMe transfer protocol which was designed from the ground up for the capabilities on an SSD.

My recommendation for that would be the Samsung 970 EVO PLUS. Tried and tested, a top performer, and doesn't break the bank.

Yeah, i think you definitely need to try other graphics outputs, you should find that the BIOS is displayed on one of them.
970 evo plus ordered for delivery...

Thanks for the education on the difference between SATA and PCIe... looking forward to the new drive arriving and getting a fresh install done... now to fiddle with monitors and cables till i can see the BIOS...

Thanks again Citay...
 

citay

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The 970 EVO PLUS is actually a bit better if you ask me. The next step up from that would be the 980 PRO, not the 980. But the 970 EVO PLUS is already great.
 

DoinitSideways

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@citay , i managed to finally get the bios visible... i tried all sorts of monitor combinations (even just each GPU individually) i ended up unplugging the power from the radeon card and it opened bios. I set the settings to not check everytime and only use the IGD and reboot. when it still worked i plugged power back into the radeon and reboot and i could still get bios visible on the IGD... so now it boots using the IGD and i can get bios in uefi mode... funnily though, when windows opens it uses the radeon card as the primary display... this isnt an issue, but i imagine there is a setting somewhere for this...

Only thing left to go is the courier to deliver my nvme (the 970 evo plus) and a fresh install onto it....ill likely give windows 11 another try.

Thanks for all your help again... so muchly appreciated.

Josh
 
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