K7N2G-ILSR refuses to POST

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Lord Darkness

Guest
OK, I don't know how much info I should put in this thread, I might bore you to death. But a short version of the scenario;

My newly bought set-up;

MSI K7N2G-ILSR -- DEMO1 card

AMD Athlon XP2500+ 1.833 GHz Barton Socket A 333MHz bus, 512kb

TwinMOS PC3200 DDR-DIMM 1024MB Dual Pack Kit w/two matched PC3200 CL2.5 DDRs

The DEMO1 part means that it comes without the box and screws etc, it's a discount card that could've been returned from a customer or replaced by the distributor, it still have all the warranty etc.

After installing everything vital for that first test-run I got a black screen with nothing but the wispering of the fans. I thought this rather odd, considering I had only one motherboard, one CPU (perfectly assembled of course) and two RAMs (apart from monitor and keyboard), not even a graphics card to consider. I knew the monitor was working, but switched just for being 110% sure, still nothing.

I took everything out of the case and placed it carefully on an antistatic bag on the desk, looked carefully thru everything one more time (this is my first MSI board, I've used Abit from BH6 and onwards). I had changed the J10 and J11 to 133/166, I had cleared the CMOS, I had re-inserted the memory in different banks, then tried one memory in bank 1, then bank3, then two memories in bank1 and 3 and then 1 and 2 etc etc. Then suddenly after the umtenth time it POSTed, but after going into BIOS and changing some stuff (preparing for the real install) and going out from BIOS the computer again refused to POST. I cleared the CMOS and tried again, but to no success. I even installed two different graphic cards (one GeForce and one Radeon) but as suspected that helped nada.

OK, after this I took my freinds computer and tried the CPU and memory on his board (an Abit KD7A), and it worked. "OK" I thought, "it's the motherboard that's not working", so I tried his stuff on my board to prove that. But to my surprise it POSTed. I was rather baffled at this, and started trying all sorts of different set-ups but it allways came to my computer POSTing once every 20th (or so) time. Once I actually managed to get the full set-up (with harddrives and CD etc) to boot and I started installing WinXP, but after every reboot the installion made I was back to the black screen. I tried to restart the computer 20-30 times to get a boot back to the installation (this goes on for 3 or so restarts). Finally after hundred restarts I get WinXP installed, but after 2 minutes it resets without warning. This is tried a couple of times, and yes it happens every time. I check the heatsink for the umtenth time, but it's a perfect fit (it's actually more or less fool-proof). So I finally give up and consider the board faulty (hey, don't say I didn't give it try, this is ONE WEEK after I got the parts). I go back to the store, and they exchange it without checking the board (as they know they can take my work for it, I later check with them and they confirm it's faulty although can't specify any details or who tried what, so I suspect nothing was infact checked, it was probably returned to the distributor as is).

OK, finally a new board, I come home, put everything together, get a new screen I haven't seen before (some MSI 8xAGP logo) but nothing more. I'm pretty satisfied thinking it's just the normal "first boot to verify CPU thing" (as I said it's my first MSI board). I restart the machine, but get the normal black screen. Ten restarts later, same thing. Now I'm REALLY pulling my hair here, what's going on here?

I've never experienced anything remotly similar to this during my 15 years as a PC building enthusiast. It's just beyond me, please throw out ANY thoughts, opinions or suggestions you might have after reading this long and boring post.

//LD
 

Wonkanoby

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no chance you got the d bracket at all then as that makes life a lot easier

what cpu

what vga card

what psu

combined watts 3.3 and 5 v

max amps 3.3 5 and 12v

bios shows up if it does boot

temps in bios if it does boot
 
G

Grog

Guest
Well I will say what everyone else here is going to say, we need more info on what you have in the computer.

Open Profile at top of forum and go to Sig and fill at a sit like the one at bottom of this post.

List everything in computer power supply, memory, cpu, version of board and bois.

Than list the info from sticker on side of power supply like 3.3v Amps, 5v Amps and 12v amps. If it listed also list the combind Watts for 3.3v, 5v and 12v.

The MSI boards need lots of power and a good power supply not a cheap one.

Some have gotten away with running 300 Watt and 350 Watt PSU but most have to run even better ones.

This is the min that keeps poping up in the forum 3.3v 24A, 5v 30A and 12v 16A this is min.

The combinded Watts of 3.3v, 5v and 12v should be over 230 Watts.

Also they keep pointing out that the Nivida chip set is very picky with ram.
 
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Lord Darkness

Guest
OK, a quick reply before I must run, I'll post later when I've gotten home from work.

CPU; BARTON2500+ (this was actually in the first post)
VGA; onboard, as well as one GeForce2mx and Radeon, all three same result (this was also in the post).
PSU; Three different ones, one being Enermax350watt, one being a 400W CHIEFTEC and one being a Q-Tip350watt.

I have a lot of hardware, but as I can't get the computer to post with only the vital hardware (board, CPU and memory) it's pointless listing them at this moment.

I didn't get any brackets, and I'm in a catfight with the store about this (they say it's a demo card, I say they said every function of the card would be included, but without brackets, no diagnostic, no TV-out and no FireWire etc).

OK, gotta run, talk to you later, thanks a lot for the help guys.

//LD

*EDIT* - Changed the name of the PSU to Cheiftec - */EDIT*
 

Wonkanoby

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well unless they are real old the first 2 should be ok,the q-tec you might as well throw in the bin

post the max amps though as ive seen some older of both are no longer up to it

try forcing 100 fsb with j10 jumper

check the jumpers as well like cmos etc if its like a return

you are hooking up the seperate 12v feed
 
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clarkkent57

Guest
You also might want to try the minimum configuration to boot your system and install XP. Motherboard, cpu, one RAM module, one cd-rom, one hard drive, and nothing else. If you're successful, add only one piece of equipment at a time.

Your Antec 400 supply should work, but check my sig for my recommendation. Wonk runs it as well.
 
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Lord Darkness

Guest
OK, here's some more info. I checked the memory compability list before buying the board and thought I was over-precautios doing so (as I've never had compability issues, but as this was a new brand/chipset for me I thought I might as well do it), and the TwinMos 2*512 was listed as OK.

The list;
http://www.nvidia.com/content/nForceMemoryCompatability/lstnForceMemoryCompatibility.asp

Upon further examination I found this;
The TwinMos listed has this 'partnumber';
M2S9J16AGAWB9F0811B-T
I have;
M2S9J16AJAPS9F0811A-T

Does this really have something to say? If so, the art and fun of building your own system have more or less crumbled. I mean all the different compability issues there is in the world with all the different drivers, BIOS versions, CPU steppings, PSU effects, Chipset/VGA that need to fit together etc etc, you already have a great deal to think about. But has it really come down to having to take the frikkin' serialnumber of the RAM you're buying into consideration?

OK, now for the PSUs;

First of all I mistook the 400W PSU my friend had for an Antec, when it in fact was a Cheiftec. It was really cheap and came bundled with his case. Sorry for that, I'll edit my post above. As I said its my freinds and I can't check up on that right now (although I did use it here with the first board I had (that might or might not have been broken?) and it didn't help).

But for my two PSUs;
The Enermax 350 is in fact an old geezer (two years) and it lists these specs;
3.3 = 30A
5 = 32A
12 = 12A
It only lists the 3.3 and 5volts combined and that is listed as 160Watt.

The Q-tip 350 has these specs;
3.3 = 20A
5 = 35A
12 = 17A

It's the same with the combined volts, only lists 3.3 and 5volts together and that's 180Watt. I assume the 3.3, 5 and 12 are the PSUs total output? In that case I've already listed the specs for that.

It should also be noted that while borrowing my friends PSU, he borrowed mine and ran his Abit KD7A with a Barton2500+ overclocked to 11.5*200 and 4 harddrives and a CD-R burner and a Radeon8500 (also overclocked) without any troubles whatsoever, so the thought of my PSU not even POSTing on my board with absolute minimal config is a little "worrying". I still need to do further testing with this PSU-business though, too bad his out drinkuing and I can't access his hardware at this point! :cry:

OK, now for the board. As I don't have the original packaging and can't get this baby to boot, the info I have is from the stickers on the board (sorry for being over-informative here);
Sticker on backside of board;
K7N2G-ILSR 0302121412
Sticker on Bios EPROM;
Phoenix Bios D686 120795470
Printed between the AGP and first PCI;
MS-6570 VER:1

Ok, let me know if I can gather any other info for you guys. Like I said, I'm extremely grateful you people are helping out, I hope I can return the favour as soon as possible.

//LD
 
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clarkkent57

Guest
If you compare thses PSU specs with the Antec True430 or above, you can see that each one is clearly rated too low.

While your problem may be something other than the PSU, there's a really good chance that a new one will fix your problems. Like I have said in numerous posts, the Antec True550 is really the best supply for nForce2, because it provides a "headroom" of 20-30%, something everybody should have, whether they know it or not. (Actually, it's ideal to run a power supply at 50% of it's rating, which is either currently not possible and/or practical.)

Additionally, go here:

http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/

and plug in all your specs. If you have onboad anything, check the box next to the card that does this function, then report back with your info, along with total hardware config, so that we can see if you've run into a problem with a specific device.

Also read these articles:

http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20030609/index.html

http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20021021/index.html
 
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Lord Darkness

Guest
Well I did the test on the link and it said;
Your Recommended Minimum Power Supply is 263 Watts.

I included a HD, a CD-Burner although I havn't even connected those things yet. I also included Network, audio and USB etc although it's inclyuded on the mainboard (I don't know how much the K7N2G consumes).

I must say the WATT test feels a little off, the bare motherboard and CPU plus memory is not gonna consume more than 350Watt, so it's more a compability issue with the PSU in that case.

Remeber I HAVE NOT plugged in Harddrives, CD-roms or ANY cards (not even graphics) and it still won't even POST. I have another computer running 24/7 with a Celeron633@1000 with 756MB RAM and 7 IDE devices plus floppy as well as 1 network, 1 sound, 1 IDE controller and a graphics card on a no-name 250Watt PSU. I know I'm on the limit on that computer because if I exchange the graphics card with one that consumes more power I get sudden re-boots and stuff like that.

I'm not saying it's not the PSU, in fact that's what I've thought myself since it did boot a couple of times (out of hundreds, but still). But if it's PSU related it has to do with compability and/or quality of the brand and not the amount of Watt listed (i should be able to at least POST with an emty board).

//LD
 
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clarkkent57

Guest
Right now, I'm kind of looking at your 3.3v and 5v power consumption; the MB, RAM, onboard AGP, and built-in NIC use this bus, devices which are still "there" during minimal setup.

From some alternate resources available to me, it seems that your combined 3.3 and 5 usage, even at minimal setup, might be exceeding the total combined power of either supply you listed.

K7N2G-ILSR is pretty picky (more than most boards, it seems) about the RAM you use as well, but it's better to eliminate the likely over the unlikely first. A top of the line PSU is way cheaper than good memory. Plus, were you to buy an Antec True550, you'd have some reassurance that practically no problem you're having or might have in the future would be power supply related. (The best problems are the ones that never happen.) In any case, you should NEVER skimp on the PSU, even with a budget system.
 

Wonkanoby

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Messages
31,259
the qtec are just pure rubbish

the numbers you list are its peak i can hold it for 1/10 second numbers as well

the other s far to light on the 12v at 12a,a new enermax 350 gives 32a 32a and 22a

borrow some thing beefier
 
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clarkkent57

Guest
Right on, Wonk. (And thanks for the BIOS as well! You're like the Yoda of this forum.)

It's often really tough to try to help people here, even with my 30 years of electronics/computers hardware background.

It reminds me of the old joke about the guy who is lost, and asks a farmer for directions. The farmer tells the man, "Go back across the bridge you came over, and..." At this time, the lost man interjects with, "I didn't cross a bridge," to which the farmer replies, "Well, if you didn't cross the bridge, we're not standing here talking, and you're not lost."

Lord Darkness, please don't take any of this personally, except maybe from a positive aspect. Please give us the info we request, as soon as you possibly can. Nobody here is making money helping other users, so we need as much help (in the form of cooperation) as we can get from the users with the problems. To delay the info is to delay the resolution.
 
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Lord Darkness

Guest
Clark Kent, sorry if I seemed arrogant or otherwise inco-operative, I assure you that was not at all my intention, after all it's me who wants this solved more than anyone, so that would be utterly stupid of me. If I did come thru as having bad manners, that must be my frustration sipping thru and I'm sorry if that's the case. I'd also like to remind you that English is not my native language, so things can happen out of that alone.

As for helping others on forums, I know very well what you're talking about, I hang out at many boards (computer-related amongst others) and I even run my own board (although it's music and movie related) so I know how frustrating it can be to be the "farmer"! :-P)

I'm not really sure what you mean by "delaying info" but if it's me running out and getting a Antec550, I just like to tell you two things; first, an Antec550 will set me back $125 plus shipping (an Enermax550 will set me back $150 plus S&H), and this was supposed to be a budjet computer until I upgrade, when this one is going to become a HomeTheatrePC (that's why I wanted integrated graphics).

Secondly, this computer will not be upgraded at all, there is no "upgrading for the future" involved here. This one will run it's course until I won't have any need for it. I'll upgrade to the Athlon64 platform within a year, although I might be able to use the Antec for that computer, I'd still have to buy a new one for this computer as I plan on using it paralell.

So you might understand why I'd want to clear the PSU thing first, making sure that's really where the problem is and not run out to buy a $150 PSU "just to be sure". If that turns out to be true, I'd consider returning the board and get one that I know will run under one of the PSUs I have, especially if the memory turns out to be a problem as well. With that said, I would also be willing to buy a better PSU if I knew that would solve my problems.

//LD
 
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clarkkent57

Guest
At this point, then, I'd say that your best course of action would be to borrow a good PSU (e.g. Antec True430, 480, 550), and see what happens. If it fixes the problem, then you'll know what to do. If you're not planning on expanding, I'd go for the 430 or 480.

Bear in mind that a faulty or low power supply can also damage equipment as well, so you might have more than one issue by now.

You might check an online shopper (e.g. Pricegrabber.com) for the lowest price on a good PSU.

From Tom's Hardware:

http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20030609/power_supplies-18.html

"In the 400- to 449-Watt class, Zalman's ZM400A-APF is a solid power supply that really performs well. A definite plus is its low noise levels: At 27.5 db(A) at minimum load, the power supply is almost inaudible. The Fortron Source FSP400-60PFN is also worth a mention. The device offers excellent output scores and excellent features. What's more, this power supply scored the best efficiency rating in the test with 78%. "

"In the power-use class, the 450- to 520-Watt league, the THG lab technicians only arrived at one recommendation: the Antec True 480P, which produced the most power in the test. This power supply also delivers stable voltages on all lines and comes with a good equipment package. The Antec True 480P is the power supply we recommend for high demands, and is especially suited to extreme overclockers. "
 
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Lord Darkness

Guest
OK, I havn't been able to find a friend who has a better PSU, so it looks like I have to do a $150 dollar hit-or-miss routine here....
I have three questions before buying a PSU I might not have use for;

1. Where can I find the minimal requirements for this board? I know you guys listed some numbers, but I wanty the official minimun so that I can check this with the PSUs I've already tested. I've looked in the manual, read the FAQ, browsed thru the site and read many reviews without seeing this mentioned. Because you guys say that this board won't run on a generic PSU this should be clearly stated somewhere on the MSI site so that buyers are aware that this board won't run on a normal PSU that most people would have. No reviews state this a problem which is funny.

2. I've seen tests where a K7N2 (i.e. my board minus the graphics) is run on a 300w PSU, with added Radeon9800pro, overclocked CPU and the normal batch of HDs and CD drivers. No mentioning of any power-related troubles. Is the graphics part of the chip so demanding that I can't even POST my board even without any of the above mentioned power consuming factors? After all the motors in a HD and/or CD draws a lot of power.

3. Memory. Noone answered my question regarding memory above. My memory is listed in the compatibility list but with a slightly different partnumber, does this mean I can't consider my memory tested and cleared? If this is the case I find the fact that this has not been mentioned clearly on the MSI site or in reviews equally worrying as the PSU issue.

//LD
 
S

strvmarv

Guest
I'm having a similar problem with the K7NG-L

I went as far as buying a new power supply: Antec TruePower 430 (which is more than sufficient for my setup)

Seems to be either a defective board or defective CPU (Barton 2500+)

I've broken down and decided to order a new mainboard and see what happens.

Good luck
 

gfilitti

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Jul 8, 2002
Messages
6,501
RAM or the mainboard is duff..is my guess...after all that is all that's going on here.

That's the problem when the DIY builder sets out on the adventure, already beginning the trip without water and proper planning. Used shoes and a dull knife. And no change of clothes, should the set he is wearing becomes soiled or torn.

No wonder most of them never make it to their destination without great pain and spending much time and money.

If you must pick up a supply from a large chain that will take it back and give you your money without much hassle.

Then consider getting the right type of memory...theres a whole thread at the top of this forum, albeit lengthy and the tendency to be confusing, you'll come out with at least three vendors and part numbers that wont give you problems.

Getting a motherboard the way you did might be fine for a builder that has known good parts to work with that board to make troubleshooting easy. But that's the problem with the DIY market, troubleshooting can be costly and time consuming.

I hope you get it sorted out :wall:
 
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Lord Darkness

Guest
Originally posted by GlennVidia
RAM or the mainboard is duff..is my guess...after all that is all that's going on here.
I find it rather unlikely that this board would be defective since the exact same scenareo took place with the first board (see first post).

That's the problem when the DIY builder sets out on the adventure, already beginning the trip without water and proper planning. Used shoes and a dull knife. And no change of clothes, should the set he is wearing becomes soiled or torn.

No wonder most of them never make it to their destination without great pain and spending much time and money.
I don't know if this was aimed at me, but since I'm the topic starter, and you choose to vent these opinions in this thread I wanna comment this.

Like I said in the first post, this is far from my first computer, I've been building PCs for myself, family and freinds for close to 15 years (I think '89 was the year I switched to PC, my very first was built be me).

Then consider getting the right type of memory...theres a whole thread at the top of this forum, albeit lengthy and the tendency to be confusing, you'll come out with at least three vendors and part numbers that wont give you problems.
I know my posts have been long and boring, but it you would have read it you'd seen that I've commented this several times without getting an answer. I DID read the list, and I DID buy a memory that was listed, but I had no way of checking the part-number (and even if I could, I didn't know (and still don't know) that the exact same part-number needs to be bought or the MB will be dead (it sounds highly unlikely in my ears, but times change so...).

Getting a motherboard the way you did might be fine for a builder that has known good parts to work with that board to make troubleshooting easy. But that's the problem with the DIY market, troubleshooting can be costly and time consuming.
Well, I know what I'm buying. These parts are not new to me, save for the motherboard. The Enermax PSU I have have worked without ANY hassle on many many different configurations, including the same config I posted above but with a different motherboard (but still one that uses the Nforce2 chipset). How am I gonna know that a PSU that runs perfectly with many different brands refuses to even let a MSI board POST when MSI doesn't state this clearly anywhere? For once I deceided to test a new brand, maybe that was foolish of me, but the board had just what I wanted for this project (on paper that is). Don't get me started on the time thing, I've already clearly stated how much time has gone into testing every possible angle of the problem before jumping at any conclusions.

Again, I don't want to come across as unfreindly or a douch-bag, and I know you guys do your best to help other people out. But then again you spend that time arguing about stuff that have already been brought up several times in this very thread, and I think it's only fair to bring that up (for the sake of the discussion, not to "defend" myself).

Any way you look at this, MSI comes out pretty badly. If the board is faulty, then it's my second (out of 2) MSI board that has been DOA. Not that flattering. If it's the PSU, then again MSI have severly failed to make people aware that even a good PSU won't be enough to make this board struggle thru a simple POST routine. If it's the memory, well again MSI have failed to state that in order for their motherboard to run, you need to pay the RAM factory a visit and tell them to only use parts that have been tested on a MSI board (my memory works just fine on other boards).

Maybe I'm just incompetent, but then how have I built 50 or more computers without any major trouble? The time and effort I put into building a new PC goes far beyond anyone else I know. In order for MSI to spend time on an issue, they need 3 or more people having the same troubles. Well as far as the PSU thing, I've seen at least ten times that many people (on this board and otherwise) having problems probably relating to this.


I'll take the board down to a shop I've spent a lot of money in during the years, hopefully they'll be kind enough to test my setup with a couple of different PSUs, but I can't count on it, they have a lot to do and a lot of customers to attend to. Returning the board will giving up, something I have never done so far when it comes to computer-related problems, but even if I establish the fact that I need to spend another $150 bucks on a project that was supposed to built by old parts for as little as possible (not to mention it's supposed to be a quiet HTPC) there is costs nvolved for me to return the board. Ah well, you live and learn, stick to Abit!

//LD
 
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Lord Darkness

Guest
So noone can answer me what voltage settings are the official minimum recuirements from MSI on this board? If MSI can't be bothered posting these, then are you going to be able to make the right PSU decision when you buy a new MB?

And noone can dismiss or confirm my question about the memory partnumbers either?

:frankie:

//LD
 
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