MSI BIOS Update to address Intel Raptor Lake Instability - enforce Intel standard power limits?

jlkoras12df02b8

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Will MSI be issuing a BIOS update yo address the ongoing Raptor Lake instability issues. ASUS has already issued a beta update allowing for a enforcement to standard Raptor Lake power limits... Will MSI be following suit? I am currently sitting with a Z790 Godlike with Intel 14900K and experiencing issues regardless of what I do to tweak the BIOS. While some tweaks make situation better it never seems to resolve without drastic power reductions. Can we just get a BIOS with enforced standards and I'll determine my overclocks, is update in the works? If there is already a current tread on this then I apologize and ask moderator to move.
 
It's called "box cooler" preset, but you can also change Lite Load Mode to Intel's something (it's named accurately). That said - just bump LLC to level 3 or 2 and you're done, unless you've lost memory controller lottery.
 
Kingston Fury Renegade DDR5 7200mhz x4 (running it at XMP2 6800mhz at this time). Not the memory as this passed full memtest on another machine.
Here's where I'm at...Best Friend (Thanks Nick for helping with my misery) and I built new rigs right about the same time 6-7 weeks ago (mine for the wife to be a light content creation machine/gaming for her). The only difference between two rigs is the motherboard (mine MSI Godlike Z790/friend used ASUS Dark Hero Z790) otherwise same mem, CPU and gpu. Both machines were having stability issues but his was were less than problems I have been having. Swapped CPU's between machines...same problems (mine and his) He flashed BIOS but with my CPU installed and no problems yet (36-48 hours approx) using the baseline profile in the new BIOS. So I understand that the MSI Box/Tower/Water cooler configuration selection should result in a theoretical baseline profile when using Box...except this is not fixing anything and his CPU in my PC still throws errors and BSOD etc. To avoid errors I need to drastically throttle back settings in the MSI BIOS. The new ASUS baseline profile seems to be working with My CPU in his PC ... will that continue, who knows. I'm down to either it being some combination of settings in the MSI BIOS or a bad motherboard - leaning toward bad motherboard if indeed the 'Box' configuration is the equivalent of the 'Baseline Profile' exposed in the ASUS BIOS recently. TY for assist. My regular machine is a Threadripper workstation for content creation and has been a dream. Never had any issues like this with Intel build...gotta be bad MB throwing unstable voltage.
 
It's called "box cooler" preset, but you can also change Lite Load Mode to Intel's something (it's named accurately). That said - just bump LLC to level 3 or 2 and you're done, unless you've lost memory controller lottery.
Polishsirhawk basically points out everything about ASUS new BIOS rule, to make it more clear
- Set short/long duration power limit to 253W since you have 14900K (maximum turbo power)
- Set CPU Lite load control to Intel default or make CPU AC/DC Loadline to be 110, default is 4,50/110 which is a bit low if your CPU has subpar quality
Asus also enable IA/SA CEP, if you're not playing with vcore, that shouldn't matter but i suppose that's part of the "Intel baseline rule"
 
Thanks all for assist. The mem is certified at 7200mhz(oc) by Msi so not sure there is any real problem there. My friend is currently clocked at 6800mhz (4 sticks, same mem as mine) and is stable at baseline and is using my CPU - I'll need to check details as I know there will be some slight change. I need to confirm a couple things with him later today but at this point he looks stable. Gonna tweak (AGAIN!) my system (his CPU) with recommendations above and see what happens. Not expecting anything diff but who the hell knows. Side note - My friend said he ran benchmark and comparison in extreme tuning util and was on par with similar builds/settings so not sure there is any real throttling happening. Ill need to check details later but I'm still leaning toward a bad MB voltage regulation issue.
 
- Set CPU Lite load control to Intel default or make CPU AC/DC Loadline to be 110, default is 4,50/110 which is a bit low if your CPU has subpar quality
Don't set it to 110/110. Those are maximum values specified by Intel, not normal ones that should be used. Regular ones should be set depending on motherboard so I would trust its defaults or attempt even lower values. AC/DC of 45/110 should be just fine if they are the defaults for your CPU.
Stick to undervolting or adjusting via Lite Load. It will keep DC Loadline at 80 for me (modes below or equal to Mode 12), but this one doesn't affect voltages or heat produced, only power measurements, to my knowledge.
AC Loadline is the one which does, and there you can decrease it via Lite Load. I personally use Mode 7 (AC = 35), while the BIOS defaults were at Mode 9 (AC = 50) for my model. This decrease lowers my temp by 3 degree C with my air cooler under heavy load.
If you notice any instability bump the Mode by one. I never had a problem, and didn't bother to do extensive testing, nor too many synthetics. Cinebench, Blender CPU rendering and video encoding with the CPU is enough for me to confirm stability for my usage/tasks.
That said - just bump LLC to level 3 or 2 and you're done
I wouldn't touch LLC, I think it has its uses if overclocking, otherwise default should be fine.
 
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Don't set it to 110/110. Those are maximum values specified by Intel, not normal ones that should be used. Regular ones should be set depending on motherboard so I would trust its defaults or attempt even lower values. AC/DC of 45/110 should be just fine if they are the defaults for your CPU.
Stick to undervolting or adjusting via Lite Load. It will keep DC Loadline at 80 for me (modes below or equal to Mode 12), but this one doesn't affect voltages or heat produced, only power measurements, to my knowledge.
AC Loadline is the one which does, and there you can decrease it via Lite Load. I personally use Mode 7 (AC = 35), while the BIOS defaults were at Mode 9 (AC = 50) for my model. This decrease lowers my temp by 3 degree C with my air cooler under heavy load.
If you notice any instability bump the Mode by one. I never had a problem, and didn't bother to do extensive testing, nor too many synthetics. Cinebench, Blender CPU rendering and video encoding with the CPU is enough for me to confirm stability for my usage/tasks.

I wouldn't touch LLC, I think it has its uses if overclocking, otherwise default should be fine.
AC LL bumps idle voltage and low load voltage, the lower the AC LL the better, keeping it as low as possible (no more than 0.1 mOhm/10 preferable, so minuscule influence), unless you love 1.5V in idle at any minor CPU calculation with 14th gen. Especially since newer bioses added an additional flat voltage offset to TVB Voltage Optimization, which resulted in 50mV increase. Since people have their CPUs crash under mid to heavy load (games, shader compilation and other stuff) it makes no point to bump AC Loadline even further, the LLC is what should be bumped in the first place. And if you crash under those loads, you don't need higher idle/low load voltage (which increasing AC LL introduce), so that's one more point towards increasing LLC. Also, AC LL performance relies on VRM-CPU feedback loop, so by nature it's a worse option for transient loads and that was the case with Raptor Lakes, where the VID boosting from AC LL was delayed against CPU voltage requirements for sudden load and the platform crashed. That was improved in Alder Lake feedback loop.

I have 12700k on Z690-A Pro at LLC2 and AC of 0.1 mOhm/10 with adaptive voltage set to 1.44V (5.3GHz up until 5 cores), under y cruncher VT3 the clock bounces 5.1/5.0GHz and vcore stays at 1.35-1.39V, in games it bounces 5.1-5.2 and 1.37-1.41V with sporadic bumps to 1.44V (same goes for geekbench 6). On 1.24U2 bios, I ran 1.46V, LLC8 and AC of 60, this retained the aforementioned vcores, but on B bios and newer (or even earlier probably) there was an addition of extra offset of 50mV and the same settings suddenly hit 1.5V in low load. And still crashed on Clang multicore test startup despite the fact, that voltage under R23 was 15mV higher anyway. Despite knowing, that LLC above middle level introduce higher vcore ripple, I've checked LLC1 and LLC2 in order to drop down AC Loadline, because this voltage (and GB6 crashing) was nuts.

This is a universal voltage behaviour for modern Intels and opting for LLC increase and AC LL decrease is the better choice, since it's UV and vdroop countermeasure (so the thing needed with CPUs crashing under load) combined.
 
MSI BIOS has options for quick settings of Power Limit 253W and applying Intel default voltage behavior (equivalent of Asus' Intel Fail Safe)- CPU Cooler Tuning and "Intel Default" in "CPU Lite Load Control" menu.
From https://www.msi.com/blog/improving-gaming-stability-for-intel-core-i9-13900k-and-core-i9-14900k
1714037420973.png


1714037405092.png
 
How much do I lose in terms of performance if I set it to Boxed cooler?

It depends mainly on two things:

1) Your CPU model, meaning how much power it would like to draw with the power limits maxed out. The lower the model, the less of a performance impact there will be on average. With the 14700K probably being a slight exception, since it also likes to draw >300W at full load when unrestricted, worse than a 13900K. Only the 14900K(S) is more bonkers.

2) The type of load, wether we are talking full multicore load like Cinebench, where with a 14900K for example you'd see a higher performance loss, but then in games, where the CPU is only half loaded at the most, you would see no loss or a small loss.

Since 2020 at the latest (on here anyway), i always promoted lowering the "CPU Lite Load" setting more to what the CPU actually needs, than what MSI deemed necessary to add as a "safety margin". Here is a post from the next day, showing already on the 10th gen CPUs how crazy it is to run them with maxed out power limits (the i9-9900K was the first "monster", but from 10th gen onwards they really pushed the i9 models too hard).

Above 200-250W - depending on the CPU model - the performance becomes what i like call "junk performance", the last few percent of performance gains in fully multithreaded load are bought with a skyrocketing power consumption. I believe no CPU of the current technology/silicon should be allowed to draw more, except when a) time is money (the faster a job is finished, the better), and b) the cooling is exceptional (high-end 360mm AIO or better, or custom loop), and c) the CPU is a 13900K(S) or 14900K(S). Because if you have a 14700K, time is not money, otherwise you would've gotten the 14900K. Because if your cooling is not exceptional, you will run into thermal throttling. And of course the efficiency goes down the drain. So it's better to wait a couple seconds/minutes longer for the result and have it done at better efficiency. Of course, lowering CPU Lite Load at the same time is ideal.

I see the main reason in setting the power limits that the cooling is protected, that the temperatures are under control under all circumstances. I then see optimizing "CPU Lite Load" as a great method of lowering power consumption by bringing the voltage to a more sane level according to the specific CPU. Both steps are explained here for example.

When using the CPU Lite Load Control "Advanced" mode, it becomes possible to set different AC and DC loadlines, but modifying the DC Loadline would mean modified power consumption measurements and VIDs, and if setting AC loadline to a different value than DC loadline, the power consumption readouts and VID values will become more inaccurate. I like to keep them synchronized, and then one might as well use the normal mode.

Advanced mode could give more fine-grained control in 1/100 m
\mathrm{\Omega}
(Milliohm) steps, but i don't recommend going to the edge of stability anyway, it's better to have some stability headroom. So i would first find the lowest stable mode (one above the first unstable one!), and then i would raise it by one additional step to be on the absolute safe side even under worse conditions like higher ambient temperature.

MSI and the other board makers are very hesitant to lower their high default voltages, for example they also like to use very high IMC (memory controller)-related voltages once XMP/EXPO is enabled with a sufficient speed, to ensure the highest amount of stability and the lowest amount of support questions. When the BIOS applies high voltages there, it has a better chance of stabilizing the RAM, even though it's very blunt and unsophisticated method and often uses way more voltage than necessary. They will only ever lower voltages when there is a major problem like there was with AMD AM5 which were actually blowing up from too high SoC voltage.

Similarly, for the CPU, they will favour settings that emphasize performance over efficiency or lower power draw, otherwise they look worse in the board reviews vs. the competition for example. So the kind of things we're seeing now, them scrambling to release BIOS updates with "Intel Baseline" profiles because the CPUs are unstable at defaults, these are extraordinary circumstances, hopefully this will shift something not only for the board makers, but also for the buying public. We need to get away from these high-end CPUs that are pushed far beyond their comfort zone from factory, and the boards then letting them off the leash completely.
 
The gain in stability outweighs the performance loss of ~5 percent (if that).
If you're not crashing under load, the performance loss is a loss for neigh. What people should be doing is raising LLC.

Lowering CPU Lite Load is a handicapped method of undervolting, since manufacturers can't be assed to use a properly high LLC mode on default, this in turns leaves to AC Loadline being skyhigh, resulting in unnecesarily very high low load voltage and, given recent issues, doesn't even help that much in terms of vdroop height. AC LL above 0.30 mOhm should have never become a standard, it doesn't help much in the first place.
 
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It depends mainly on two things:

1) Your CPU model, meaning how much power it would like to draw with the power limits maxed out. The lower the model, the less of a performance impact there will be on average. With the 14700K probably being a slight exception, since it also likes to draw >300W at full load when unrestricted, worse than a 13900K. Only the 14900K(S) is more bonkers.

2) The type of load, wether we are talking full multicore load like Cinebench, where with a 14900K for example you'd see a higher performance loss, but then in games, where the CPU is only half loaded at the most, you would see no loss or a small loss.

Since 2020 at the latest (on here anyway), i always promoted lowering the "CPU Lite Load" setting more to what the CPU actually needs, than what MSI deemed necessary to add as a "safety margin". Here is a post from the next day, showing already on the 10th gen CPUs how crazy it is to run them with maxed out power limits (the i9-9900K was the first "monster", but from 10th gen onwards they really pushed the i9 models too hard).

Above 200-250W - depending on the CPU model - the performance becomes what i like call "junk performance", the last few percent of performance gains in fully multithreaded load are bought with a skyrocketing power consumption. I believe no CPU of the current technology/silicon should be allowed to draw more, except when a) time is money (the faster a job is finished, the better), and b) the cooling is exceptional (high-end 360mm AIO or better, or custom loop), and c) the CPU is a 13900K(S) or 14900K(S). Because if you have a 14700K, time is not money, otherwise you would've gotten the 14900K. Because if your cooling is not exceptional, you will run into thermal throttling. And of course the efficiency goes down the drain. So it's better to wait a couple seconds/minutes longer for the result and have it done at better efficiency. Of course, lowering CPU Lite Load at the same time is ideal.

I see the main reason in setting the power limits that the cooling is protected, that the temperatures are under control under all circumstances. I then see optimizing "CPU Lite Load" as a great method of lowering power consumption by bringing the voltage to a more sane level according to the specific CPU. Both steps are explained here for example.

When using the CPU Lite Load Control "Advanced" mode, it becomes possible to set different AC and DC loadlines, but modifying the DC Loadline would mean modified power consumption measurements and VIDs, and if setting AC loadline to a different value than DC loadline, the power consumption readouts and VID values will become more inaccurate. I like to keep them synchronized, and then one might as well use the normal mode.

Advanced mode could give more fine-grained control in 1/100 m
\mathrm{\Omega}
(Milliohm) steps, but i don't recommend going to the edge of stability anyway, it's better to have some stability headroom. So i would first find the lowest stable mode (one above the first unstable one!), and then i would raise it by one additional step to be on the absolute safe side even under worse conditions like higher ambient temperature.

MSI and the other board makers are very hesitant to lower their high default voltages, for example they also like to use very high IMC (memory controller)-related voltages once XMP/EXPO is enabled with a sufficient speed, to ensure the highest amount of stability and the lowest amount of support questions. When the BIOS applies high voltages there, it has a better chance of stabilizing the RAM, even though it's very blunt and unsophisticated method and often uses way more voltage than necessary. They will only ever lower voltages when there is a major problem like there was with AMD AM5 which were actually blowing up from too high SoC voltage.

Similarly, for the CPU, they will favour settings that emphasize performance over efficiency or lower power draw, otherwise they look worse in the board reviews vs. the competition for example. So the kind of things we're seeing now, them scrambling to release BIOS updates with "Intel Baseline" profiles because the CPUs are unstable at defaults, these are extraordinary circumstances, hopefully this will shift something not only for the board makers, but also for the buying public. We need to get away from these high-end CPUs that are pushed far beyond their comfort zone from factory, and the boards then letting them off the leash completely.

I only really see people talking about 13700 14700 14900 etc, so should i worry about any of this on a 13600k? I changed the lite load to Intel, but should i switch the rest also?
 
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