MSI BIOS Update to address Intel Raptor Lake Instability - enforce Intel standard power limits?

jlkoras12df02b8

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Will MSI be issuing a BIOS update yo address the ongoing Raptor Lake instability issues. ASUS has already issued a beta update allowing for a enforcement to standard Raptor Lake power limits... Will MSI be following suit? I am currently sitting with a Z790 Godlike with Intel 14900K and experiencing issues regardless of what I do to tweak the BIOS. While some tweaks make situation better it never seems to resolve without drastic power reductions. Can we just get a BIOS with enforced standards and I'll determine my overclocks, is update in the works? If there is already a current tread on this then I apologize and ask moderator to move.
 
Well, you're allowing yours to chug over 300W while still achieving the best cooling performance i have ever seen, it would be a shame if that didn't run any better than a 14700K that's at 175W power limits?
#FACTS- @Arctucas I see direct die in the sig there hehe - custom loop or the EK direct die aio?
 
Just check his signature, delidded CPU, very powerful custom loop with two huge radiators and eight 140mm Noctua fans on each one...
LOL my other hobby is cars - if I didnt like that so much Id be in the same boat haha! Looks like he is using a static voltage for idle and for the 5.9 all core?
 
I'm not sure that you can set two static voltages like that, you have to ask him for his settings if you want to know details. But maybe privately, otherwise this slowly goes a bit too far beyond the scope of this thread... BTW, if he ever starts to see instability in the typical signs for CPU deterioration, he can only lower the clock speeds or so by himself, i don't think Intel would RMA a delidded CPU... 😅
 
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Mid 38k at stock clocks is something I can live with as long as its stable lol. Im barley touching 200 watts and scoring this woth PL1/2 set to 253 and ICCMax at 307. Looks like you are pulling almost 310watts.
Trying to stay within the confines of the scope of this thread.

First, it seems you have a good bin on that KS. Have you ever run the CPU Force test in BIOS?

Yes, you are under 200W, but should that not be closer to the PL?

My understanding of, and my experience with, CB23 loading is that it should push the processor close to the limit, whatever it is set at. I am wondering if you are leaving some performance 'on the table' so to speak.
Thats odd I get 26.7k+ on Timespy CPU on my 13900k @ 5.7Ghz?

Could it be due to my Dual Rank RAM? 6700Mhz @ CL32


I get 24K+ CPU score in Time Spy @ 5900, with HT off.

https://www.3dmark.com/spy/49255863

I'm not sure that you can set two static voltages like that, you have to ask him for his settings if you want to know details. But maybe privately, otherwise this slowly goes a bit too far beyond the scope of this thread... BTW, if he ever starts to see instability in the typical signs for CPU deterioration, he can only lower the clock speeds or so by himself, i don't think Intel would RMA a delidded CPU... 😅
It only has to last until Bartlett.

Anyway, hope I am not taking this thread off track.
 
Trying to stay within the confines of the scope of this thread.

First, it seems you have a good bin on that KS. Have you ever run the CPU Force test in BIOS?

Yes, you are under 200W, but should that not be closer to the PL?

My understanding of, and my experience with, CB23 loading is that it should push the processor close to the limit, whatever it is set at. I am wondering if you are leaving some performance 'on the table' so to speak.
Yah after RMA'ing one chip I am keeping things a little toned down on this one lol. I would love to be able to run the extreme power profile but I feel my cooling wouldnt be able to keep up, "Force CPU test in bios?" - I dont think my board has this option. The ICCMAX set at 307 with the LL being set lower than 10/11 seems holds back the powerdraw so I never really get close to 253 unless I up either of those. I hoped this one was a good bin, though after trying the uv I was at it kept randomly popping whea errors so have been stepping the uv up to -0.025 in 0.05 increments each time it happens testing and they so far have ended up stopping there - now Im in the monitoring phase so not sure how good.... I made the -0.025 change last night so we will see. I am really looking forward to a intel approval stamped bios for sure.
 
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Thats odd I get 26.7k+ on Timespy CPU on my 13900k @ 5.7Ghz?

Could it be due to my Dual Rank RAM? 6700Mhz @ CL32

Not sure dude.
Messing around with setting multiplier limits to 5.9/4.4 last night and got this https://www.3dmark.com/spy/49373919 LL I believe was set to 10. If I use auto LL with the latest beta LL is set to 16 which is crazy and pushes my voltages through the roof so finding a happy medium is my goal at this point. A small uv would be nice too but I think Im stressing out on thermals too much tbh.. At this point I can ride 9-12 w/o a uv for sure 9 I can only seem to pull at this time (hasnt been long enough) -0.025 10 doesnt like -0.60 so would need more testing 12 the same. Going to stop here and wait till the new bios revision drops.
 
Yah after RMA'ing one chip I am keeping things a little toned down on this one lol. I would love to be able to run the extreme power profile but I feel my cooling wouldnt be able to keep up, "Force CPU test in bios?" - I dont think my board has this option. The ICCMAX set at 307 with the LL being set lower than 10/11 seems holds back the powerdraw so I never really get close to 253 unless I up either of those. I hoped this one was a good bin, though after trying the uv I was at it kept randomly popping whea errors so have been stepping the uv up to -0.025 in 0.05 increments each time it happens testing and they so far have ended up stopping there - now Im in the monitoring phase so not sure how good.... I made the -0.025 change last night so we will see. I am really looking forward to a intel approval stamped bios for sure.

 
Not sure dude.
Messing around with setting multiplier limits to 5.9/4.4 last night and got this https://www.3dmark.com/spy/49373919 LL I believe was set to 10. If I use auto LL with the latest beta LL is set to 16 which is crazy and pushes my voltages through the roof so finding a happy medium is my goal at this point. A small uv would be nice too but I think Im stressing out on thermals too much tbh.. At this point I can ride 9-12 w/o a uv for sure 9 I can only seem to pull at this time (hasnt been long enough) -0.025 10 doesnt like -0.60 so would need more testing 12 the same. Going to stop here and wait till the new bios revision drops.

That CPU score just seems low, for having an obviously good processor.
 
Dont have this option in the latest beta bios (https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/MPG-Z790-EDGE-WIFI/support) is the board I have and bios versions available to me. IM on 7D91vHC3 currently. Be nice to see a SP score like some other brands have but its OK.
Yeah, it's likely just for the premium boards like the ACE, which would mirror the ASUS world. It's good to see that MSI separated out the P-Cores and E-Cores because that's now a flaw in the ASUS SP rating system. You can have widely different silicon quality for the different core types.
 
BuildZoid has been doing some further analysis of what’s going on inside Raptor Lake CPUs in regards to spikes in voltage. I thought I’d post his observations for anyone who’s interested, and I’ve added some crude background info of my own. If you already know this stuff then please be kind; there may be others who do not.

There appear to be two types of voltage spikes happening with Raptor Lake CPUs. The first is the normal transient spike that happens when you interrupt a heavy workload by manually stopping a stressful application (e.g. Prime95, Cinebench R23, etc.) or, more importantly, when moving the mouse. In the latter case, Windows detects the mouse movement and immediately interrupts what the CPU is doing in anticipation of user input. If Windows didn’t do this then we users would get locked out of our own unresponsive PCs…and that wouldn't be nice. However, once Windows detects that the user either just had a spasm, got bored, or is fooling with it, it returns the priority back to the currently running application(s). This type of transient voltage spike is normal and is basically unavoidable. Incidentally, AMD CPUs are actually worse than Intel CPUs because they tend to run much flatter voltage curves (i.e. LLC). More on that later.

A little background: The CPU voltage request system that talks to the motherboard VRM via VID requests, and the VRM power delivery system itself, is amazingly fast, but it’s not instantaneous from an electrical point of view. This means that there is a few clock cycles where the CPU is receiving far more voltage than it needs for the workload it's processing. That additional voltage “bleeds into the silicon” until it dissipates. A CPU has billions of transistors that are like tiny gates that open and close. The more gates that are open, the more current (and voltage) that can flow through the CPU, i.e. in one side and out the other. A multi-core process like Prime95 or Cinebench R23 will require huge numbers of these gates to be open to allow the digital data to flow through. When this type of process is momentarily interrupted, the gates get slammed shut and the incoming voltage crashes into the CPU silicon, a bit like a speeding car slamming into the back of a stopped car. Parts of both cars end up flying off in multiple directions until the energy of the collision is dissipated. Well, the same thing happens to the excess voltage entering the CPU. And, over time, these constant transient spikes will degrade (i.e. damage) the processor. But if the CPU and underlying silicon were designed properly, the CPU should still function for years, sometimes decades. Now, it’s worth reiterating that in most cases these transient spikes are too quick for software like HWInfo to report. Keep that in mind. Much of the CPU activity will unfortunately remain a “black box” forever.

However, there appears to be a second source of transient spikes that is lasting much longer than the regular transient spikes. These spikes appear to be happening when an application is opened, etc., and it’s these secondary voltage spikes that appear to be what Intel is now concerned about in regards to the reports of prematurely degrading Raptor Lake CPUs. A little background: Intel’s microcode has algorithms that try to predict what the near future workload is going to be in order to send voltage requests to the motherboard VRM in time to process the request and deliver the voltage back to the CPU. It’s a little bit like the speculative branch executions that go on inside the CPU. Sometimes the CPU guesses wrong, but most of the time it guesses right, the processor IPC then benefits. Well, it appears that Raptor Lake microcode is overly aggressive (or buggy) when requesting higher voltages to prepare for incoming spikes in workload, such as guessing user input when you move the mouse or opening a new application or clicking on a function within an application. The August microcode patch will probably be aimed at smoothing out these speculative VID requests - possibly among other objectives of the new code.

In regards to managing transient spikes (at least the normal kind) you can significantly reduce the potential damage of these events by #1: reducing the overall starting voltage that the CPU runs at via the various undervolting techniques described by CiTay and others, and #2. reducing the LLC aggressiveness and thereby allowing more Vdroop under full-load scenarios. For example, MSI’s LLC=6 will have more Vdroop than LLC=3. More Vdroop is good right up to the point it causes instability, crashes and WHEA errors. That’s how you know you’ve gone too far. Keep in mind that as you lower the “starting voltage” via CPU Lite Load, or negative voltage offsets (e.g. the Adaptive Offset mode), you may need to reduce Vdroop by increasing the aggressiveness of the Load Line Calibration. If you are attempting to adjust both ends of the voltage curve (i.e. light loads and full loads) via these two mechanisms then it becomes a balancing act.

So, to recap. Regular transient spikes are normal (and therefore Intel should have considered these when designing the silicon) but buggy transients due to speculative requests is not. For many of us, the new microcode can’t come soon enough.

Side note: For those of you who have implement some kind of undervolt, perhaps following CiTay’s very impressive undervolting guide, you might just keep in the back of your mind that you might have to up that voltage a little to compensate for Intel lowering it’s speculative requests. If you get any kind of instability after the new microcode is installed, try that first before you freak out too much.

Boy, I think I must be trying to compete with CiTay for the longest post award! Sorry about that….appreciate your patience. :-)

EDIT: Oh...I forgot to mention that if you really want to stop transient spikes, just don't ever touch that mouse again! :bonk:
 
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In order to be stable w/o WHEA's on the latest bios and not using the instaine LL of 16 which is what Auto is set to and Intel defaults I have found that
PL 253/253/307a
LL set to 11
-0.050 under volt
and this morning I set LLC to 6 was seeing 1.49 volt spikes on one e-core while the machine was either idle locked or waking from idle locked (lining up with @FlyingScot info regarding voltage spikes) even with the undervolt applied. without the LLC change I had 3 days of no WHEA's- leaving the machine up 24/7.
Come on new bios..... lol
 
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