MSI BIOS Update to address Intel Raptor Lake Instability - enforce Intel standard power limits?

jlkoras12df02b8

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Will MSI be issuing a BIOS update yo address the ongoing Raptor Lake instability issues. ASUS has already issued a beta update allowing for a enforcement to standard Raptor Lake power limits... Will MSI be following suit? I am currently sitting with a Z790 Godlike with Intel 14900K and experiencing issues regardless of what I do to tweak the BIOS. While some tweaks make situation better it never seems to resolve without drastic power reductions. Can we just get a BIOS with enforced standards and I'll determine my overclocks, is update in the works? If there is already a current tread on this then I apologize and ask moderator to move.
 
Solution
MSI Insider has released a OC Video for the New Intell Bios settings
Can I assume that you're happy with the performance of your Deepcool LS720 now?
No )) but it seems it's best I can get with it... Looking for some other AIO in the future, something like Lian Li Trinity 2 Performance, ,aybe the Phantecks new D30 AIO or alike that has fast pump rpms. In my tests it does not matter what your AIO's fans speed is or the fan static pressure, only the radiator thikness and the pump speed does...
 
Okay, that's good Intel. One can always tune one's cooling setup. It's just a matter of time and budget, right?

Incidentally, back to your BIOS setup. If you recheck BIOS now, has CPU Lite Load changed to 1? ...because that would be the normal condition after you implement a manual frequency/voltage. It takes a reboot to show the change, though. Same goes for any Auto setting that you return from a manual number back to Auto. In other words, BIOS screenshots should always be taken after a reboot, especially since there are several bios settings you can change that have an impact on others, but only after a reboot...and assuming it POSTs without error. I'm not sure if you missed that step, or MSI has changed the Lite Load behavior. It would be useful to know.
 
Okay, that's good Intel. One can always tune one's cooling setup. It's just a matter of time and budget, right?

Incidentally, back to your BIOS setup. If you recheck BIOS now, has CPU Lite Load changed to 1? ...because that would be the normal condition after you implement a manual frequency/voltage. It takes a reboot to show the change, though. Same goes for any Auto setting that you return from a manual number back to Auto. In other words, BIOS screenshots should always be taken after a reboot, especially since there are several bios settings you can change that have an impact on others, but only after a reboot...and assuming it POSTs without error. I'm not sure if you missed that step, or MSI has changed the Lite Load behavior. It would be useful to know.
As far as I understood from the MSI video posted a couple of pages of this topic ago, you can see the lite load in the HWInfo here
1719244804745.png

So that means it now corresponds to lite load mode 5 or 6, because this were the numbers I'd usually get fiddling with the lite load modes. Right now the bios shows it's in Auto and the "last mode used" was 9. I know Intel recommends those mOhms be equal to each other, and the Intel Profile set it to 1.100 by 1.1000, but the lite load modes always set different values there, the first being lower than the second. So I'll leave it like it is now and watch for any changes in behaviour of my PC in games and video editing. And yes I understand you should reboot before taking a screenshot but I did it several times before that since the lights had gone off and afterwards I went back to Bios to check whether anything had changed
 
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As far as I understood from the MSI video posted a couple of pages of this topic ago, you can see the lite load in the HWInfo here
View attachment 189665
So that means it now corresponds to lite load mode 5 or 6, because this were the numbers I'd usually get fiddling with the lite load modes. Right now the bios shows it's in Auto and the "last mode used" was 9. I know Intel recommends those mOhms be equal to each other, and the Intel Profile set it to 1.100 by 1.1000, but the lite load modes always set different valuse there, the first being lower than the second. So I'l leave it like it is now and watch for any changes in behaviour of my PC in games and video editing. And yes I understand you should reboot before taking a screenshot but I did it several times before that since the lights had gone off and afterwards I went back to Bios to check whether anything had changed
I would think that the BIOS screen would still show Mode 1 next to the Auto setting for CPU Lite Load....unless things have changed or one of your manual overrides took priority and deactivated the Auto switch to 1. The other thing that could be going on now or in the future are changes to AC/DC associated values (i.e. with new BIOS updates) as Intel/MSI search for the ultimate combo of values for 14th gen stability perfection, if there is such a thing. Definitely a good idea to always know where your AC/DC LL are sitting. If they change for some reason, one might have to adjust manual voltage offsets and maybe AVX offsets. BTW, speaking of AVX offsets be warned that under certain conditions, albeit rare, an AVX offset can lead to transient response instability. I assume the same could be true of any throttling-like mechanism that slams the door on the CPU cores when under full load. Just something to consider if you run into issues. A lot of games/DirectX code uses AVX instructions these days.
 
I would think that the BIOS screen would still show Mode 1 next to the Auto setting for CPU Lite Load....unless things have changed or one of your manual overrides took priority and deactivated the Auto switch to 1. The other thing that could be going on now or in the future are changes to AC/DC associated values (i.e. with new BIOS updates) as Intel/MSI search for the ultimate combo of values for 14th gen stability perfection, if there is such a thing. Definitely a good idea to always know where your AC/DC LL are sitting. If they change for some reason, one might have to adjust manual voltage offsets and maybe AVX offsets. BTW, speaking of AVX offsets be warned that under certain conditions, albeit rare, an AVX offset can lead to transient response instability. I assume the same could be true of any throttling-like mechanism that slams the door on the CPU cores when under full load. Just something to consider if you run into issues. A lot of games/DirectX code uses AVX instructions these days.
Well My CPU+ Mobo combination were able to digest only Mode 4, so I would't thing there was 1 next to auto, so I checked it and it was still Mode 9, like always in auto. As for the AVX well, we'll see. I'm still tersting it. Premiere Pro (work and render) were fine, I'm gonna test it with After Effects, Shutter Encoder and all the games I have at the moment, which are No rest for the wicked, Last Epoch, Chernobylite, Phantom Fury, Observer. Do you happen to know any exact way to check whether ofsetting the AVX was a good idea? Because the OCCT power test uses AVX2 and five minutes of it ran fine.
 
Well My CPU+ Mobo combination were able to digest only Mode 4, so I would't thing there was 1 next to auto, so I checked it and it was still Mode 9, like always in auto. As for the AVX well, we'll see. I'm still tersting it. Premiere Pro (work and render) were fine, I'm gonna test it with After Effects, Shutter Encoder and all the games I have at the moment, which are No rest for the wicked, Last Epoch, Chernobylite, Phantom Fury, Observer. Do you happen to know any exact way to check whether ofsetting the AVX was a good idea? Because the OCCT power test uses AVX2 and five minutes of it ran fine.
Very interesting. I don't have a Z790 so my experience is limited to older platforms. Perhaps CiTay has some addition wisdom to bring to the table. He might say this behavior is perfectly normal. Anyway, it's just a curiosity. And as long as you know the actual AC/DC LL values behind the scenes, which you do, then you're golden!

In regards to AVX, some people swear by it and others think it's a crutch - meaning you should drop the core frequency to what is stable under all conditions. It's very much a personal preference, and I personally see it as just another tool in the toolbox if it works for you. I just wanted to add the warning that if you ever hit a patch of instability, perhaps with just one application, and all else fails, you could unwind the AVX offset and drop the primary core frequencies accordingly. I like the premise of the more information the better...because stress testing and instability is never an exact science. Plus, think of all the things that change in your system, e.g. Windows patches, drivers, firmware, etc. One of those could expose an instability that you didn't know existed. It's a good thing cars don't behave this way. We'd probably only get to work a few days a month ;)

Well, you are definitely taking the right approach to throw the kitchen sink at the system to see how your chosen settings handle it. Time will tell. If you run into issues, don't forget the impact that memory can have. LinPack Xtreme is very good at testing everything at the same time, i.e. Cores, Cache, IMC, memory sticks. I consider it one of those final stress tests when you think you have everything tuned properly. I think other people like y-cruncher, too. But I have yet to mess with it.
 
Ok, @citay I'm back. After dozens of experiments with bios settings and tests I ended up with the following: all P-cores are fixed at 55, all E-cores at 43, AVX2 offset - munus 3, XMP - at 5600 (my memory nominal frequency which by default sets to 4400), Memory Extension Mode set to Performance Mode, CPU Core Voltage mode set to offset mode, the offset mode itself - to minus by CPU, and the voltage itself offset to minus 0.09. Then Pl 1-2 - 253 watts, the current limit - to 400A, Lite load is auto and it shows Mode 9 (which is by default on my motherboard).
With these settings I could get OCCT Power test fully stable at 87 degrees, and the Cinebench gave me 35194 pts with the Bclk 100 MHz bios setting enabled (it actually levelled up the cores fraquency to a higher level - to 5500 Hz from the normal 5480-something), and I think I'll get about the same score with this bios setting disabled - cannot check because right during the testing the electricity went off. Waiting...

What's not to like, power draw is lower, temps are lower, score is higher... nice. Cinebench doesn't care much about RAM speed, but of course, enabling XMP is a no-brainer (not that it was disabled before), DDR5-4400 would be a bottleneck. Your fan curves are still not that optimized, it seems: In idle they're all well over 1000 RPM, i run mine with below 500 RPM there.

In the screenshot from Cinebench below you'll see 2 scores: the higher is with the Bclk 100 MHz On the lower - OFF. HFInfo taken with Off.

Yes, i wish i could set my BCLK/FSB to 100 MHz on the dot, but my Z690 board's BIOS doesn't expose this option, seems to be only on Z790 boards. Spread spectrum is mainly good for passing EMI/EMC testing, for normal use i'd like to use fixed 100.0 MHz.

I know Intel recommends those mOhms be equal to each other, and the Intel Profile set it to 1.100 by 1.1000, but the lite load modes always set different values there, the first being lower than the second.

Note that in the latest recommendations, there is no mention of having to set the same values for AC and DC loadline anymore, unlike in the initial recommendations. It probably just added to the confusion, or they communicate this only to the board makers now.

The problem is, the only way to truly set everything correctly for a specific board model's VRM is to use the Intel VRTT (Voltage Regulator Test Tool). It's a huge tower of hardware that plops onto the socket and can be programmed with loads of up to 600W continuous and 800W peak, all the while capturing waveforms and data of what is going on, and if overshoot/undershoot etc. all stay in line with the specifications and don't deviate too much.

Here is an Intel document on this VRTT used for FPGA testing, https://cdrdv2-public.intel.com/632778/an853.pdf
Here's it being used on LGA1700, Google-translated, source

For an end user, you never really know which values are truly the "correct" ones. As you can see from your own result, you can optimize a lot about an individual CPU, lowering the power draw, increasing efficiency, avoiding thermal throttling and excessive voltages and currents. But to get to better operating parameters for all users, in light of these instability/deterioration issues, without them having to manually optimize everything (which can be too much to ask for a lot of users), this will have to be done by the board makers via BIOS updates, which are still in a state of flux.
 
...the only way to truly set everything correctly for a specific board model's VRM is to use the Intel VRTT (Voltage Regulator Test Tool).

Here is an Intel document on this VRTT used for FPGA testing, https://cdrdv2-public.intel.com/632778/an853.pdf
Here's it being used on LGA1700, Google-translated, source
Now why did you have to go and bring that up? Talk about going down the rabbit hole... The poor guy.... And to think that he was just beginning to feel good about having his system tuned in properly. That was cruel, CiTay. You should be ashamed of yourself! ;) ;)
 
Hehe, well, he can still feel good about his tuning, a nice improvement from the factory behaviour. That's really the best one can hope for.
We may not have a VRTT, but we have HWinfo 😉
 
Do you happen to know any exact way to check whether ofsetting the AVX was a good idea?

The problem with an AVX offset is, as soon as there is any kind of AVX instructions in the code, the frequency drops, no matter how demanding it actually is for the CPU (and AVX code is only getting more commonplace as time goes on). This is demonstrated by Buildzoid here:


There, it's talked about in the context of overclocking, but that was four years ago. Today's i7/i9 are not much good for overclocking, they are what you could call "pre-overclocked" from factory, since they have been pushed so hard that there's almost no OC headroom. Any additional voltage is basically out of the question because of the meltdown-levels of heat it would cause, so nowadays it's more about lowering the voltage or even underclocking in the worst case. So what he says, it nowadays applies to the CPUs at stock, more or less.
 
Life was soooooo... much easier when we were all learning to program on these bad boys!
Back then, I believe an "AVX offset" was something you attached to your chair!
PET.JPG

Get a load of these specs:
1Mhz 6502 CPU
ROM based operating system: Microsoft BASIC
9" monitor with 40 x 25 resolution [no GPU required]
Integrated Cassette deck
Price $495
 
Life was soooooo... much easier when we were all learning to program on these bad boys!
Back then, I believe an "AVX offset" was something you attached to your chair!
View attachment 189716
Get a load of these specs:
1Mhz 6502 CPU
ROM based operating system: Microsoft BASIC
9" monitor with 40 x 25 resolution [no GPU required]
Integrated Cassette deck
Price $495
I was there, Gandalf, I was there 3000 years ago...
 
still late for the deployment of the bios with the new micro code for the z790 ace.
Available on carbon, meg ace max, godlike, godlike max, but the z790 ace right?
It's starting to feel good to be left on the sidelines every time
 
I think they'll stay beta until Intel finished investigating their processors degradation case
That‘s a good assumption. I think we also need to consider the unfortunate reality that internal resources are probably being pulled off the Z790 platform to get the new platforms ready for autumn.
 
4 sticks of that extreme RAM is a big load on the memory controller, it may not be up to it. Have you tried running 2 sticks in slots A2/B2 ?
I'm super late to this party, but I spent a ton of time with TryIt! in the BIOS to get something more than stock 4000 CL40 speed on my Carbon Wifi Z790 from my 4 sticks (G.Skill 4x32GB 5600 CL28), which I stupidly purchased in Dec 2022 before I knew what we were in for. XMP of course won't work, but 5200 CL38 seems to be the sweetspot for 4 sticks at least on the Carbon Wifi. I need 128GB (192Gb actually) for MIDI Orchestration work, so this has been a bit aggravating long before Degradation-Gate launched. MSI shows ONE set of 192GB 4x48GB as verified, and it's 5200 CL38, so apparently that's the current limit that the memory controller can handle. I at least get 14.6ms latency vs the 20ms if I left it stock. if anyone is still gathering info for a build, consider 2-sticks if you want dazzling RAM speed.
 
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