MSI: Making cards faster than Nvidia Allows

pizdjez

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Please kindly refer to to this post now.
https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=162345.0
 

Bernhard

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A google translate can provide the essence at best, if at all. Although semi-understandable, some sentences make a mockery of the original.
Unless we can find an equivalent report in English, this does injustice to the original article. It is good to know if there are technical problems with a certain product, but then we need to know exactly what these are.
Perhaps this post needs to be locked until such time that we can get an official response from MSI regarding the accusations.

For those that understand German, the full article can be read here http://www.tomshardware.de/MSI-GTX-660-670-PowerEdition,news-248201.html

Of importance is this sentence on the first page, that seems to have been selectively left out:
Sie haben alle Stresstests und Dauerlast-Durchl?ufe gemeistert und weder Grafikfehler noch sonstige Ausf?lle verursacht.
Meaning : All stresstest and extended load tests were concluded without any failures or graphics problems.

Thus I can only assume that the OP is pointing out a technical disagreement in terms of the card design that ToM's Hardware found. The OP then selectively focusses on potential problems that may occur. For someone that has never posted in this forum before, that kind of post can only be interpreted as either vindictive or perhaps it is meant as honest information.  :think:  Lets give the poster the benefit of the doubt.

If indeed this is a design fault or oversite as intimated here http://www.tomshardware.de/MSI-GTX660Ti-Overvolting,testberichte-241108-4.html, then I am sure MSI will rectify this.

Either way, I am sure the Admin of this forum will be able to trace the original response from MSI and then that can be posted here.
 

flobelix

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Right now I'm still unsure if this is to be considered a bashing post or not and what is intended here. pizdjez not having any MSI-product as it seems makes me think this is a troublestarter-post. pizdjez you can still explain yourself and tell us what exact problem you have with your MSI product.

The "discovery" of the German Tom's Hardware post I'm able to read in the original language seems more to be some sensationalism than anything else. We are talking of a technical setting intended and fully covered by (3 year!) warranty not causing any problems even in stresstesting as Berhard already pointed out.

I put aside my first intention to delete this right away but won't for now.

 

Bernhard

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The same post was added in the German Forum.
Perhaps this can be moved to the Anything Under the Sun. It is after all an article pertaining to a MSI product which does carry technical information of value.
Any further information can then be added as it becomes available.
 

flobelix

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I'm not absolutely sure the article contains technical information of value rather than sensationalism but we will find out with more information coming in. We'll see what MSI tech comes up with. So far this moves to Anything Under the Sun as suggested by Bernhard. No need to stay in videocard section. 

Bernhard can you link to the post on the German Forum?
 

Bernhard

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Currently its here http://msi-forum.de/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=102677
 

flobelix

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Hmm, also first ever post on German forum and just links to a thread on pcgameshardware extreme forum a forum of the German Hardware magazine PC Games Hardware (pcgh). Obviously there they started some kind of big MSI bash related to that Tom's Hardware article. 

Could imagine the topic starter here is the topic starter there "Skysnake"
 

Bernhard

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Could imagine the topic starter here is the topic starter there "Skysnake"
Possible.
Lets see what transpires. The Toms HW article is not without substance and I believe an official response in English from MSI would be appropriate to allay any fears.
 

FormatC

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1.) I'm the author of the German article published on Tom's Hardware.
2.) The article has a real background and there is no sensationalism, the test is based on multiple feedback from our readers after the GTX 660 Ti roundup.
3.) One lab, one of our readers and I have independently reached the same results and analysis of errors in the wiring.
4.) I have informed MSI first and waited for a statement before we decided to publish the article.

The MSI headquarter has responded officially:

... We are currently not aware of any other vendor providing this same level of performance and we?ve worked with NVIDIA to ensure that new production models will limit this free overclock boost you currently get. Our new production models with normal GPU Boost function will be on sale next month.


Just trying to read between the lines ;)

A little part in English from our news - but: "Sorry, you are not allowed to post external links. "
Nice forum :(

Personal note:
This heavy overvoltage (I'm waiting for a response from Richtek) is a dirty cheat. I took a Gigabyte 660 Ti (with the same combination of TL431 and RT8802A) and I have separated the anode of the TL431 electrically in the same way. What I got was the same result - instable, high VDD, a lot of boost and some problems to start my computer. We have recommended the Power Edition in our roundup verbally and I feel cheated as a reviewer as well as the readers. Sorry for my poor English but I try to improve it ;)

Additional:
Two other manufacturers have already had the MSI card in their laboratories and at least one has officially protested at Nvidia. That means: it would have been a matter of time when this news would become public. But without technical background. I leave each reader to decide what would have been better.
 

xmad

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FormatC said:
1.) I'm the author of the German article published on Tom's Hardware.
2.) The article has a real background and there is no sensationalism, the test is based on multiple feedback from our readers after the GTX 660 Ti roundup.
3.) One lab, one of our readers and I have independently reached the same results and analysis of errors in the wiring.
4.) I have informed MSI first and waited for a statement before we decided to publish the article.

The MSI headquarter has responded officially:

... We are currently not aware of any other vendor providing this same level of performance and we?ve worked with NVIDIA to ensure that new production models will limit this free overclock boost you currently get. Our new production models with normal GPU Boost function will be on sale next month.


Just trying to read between the lines ;)

A little part in English from our news - but: "Sorry, you are not allowed to post external links. "
Nice forum :(

Personal note:
This heavy overvoltage (I'm waiting for a response from Richtek) is a dirty cheat. I took a Gigabyte 660 Ti (with the same combination of TL431 and RT8802A) and I have separated the anode of the TL431 electrically in the same way. What I got was the same result - instable, high VDD, a lot of boost and some problems to start my computer. We have recommended the Power Edition in our roundup verbally and I feel cheated as a reviewer as well as the readers. Sorry for my poor English but I try to improve it ;)
Thanks, we have a request in w/ MSI on this as well.

We are currently not aware of any other vendor providing this same level of performance and we?ve worked with NVIDIA to ensure that new production models will limit this free overclock boost you currently get. Our new production models with normal GPU Boost function will be on sale next month.
This does seem to indicate that an error was found and they are correcting the issue. Keep checking back and we will let you know what they say.
 

RemusM

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FormatC said:
This heavy overvoltage (I'm waiting for a response from Richtek) is a dirty cheat. I took a Gigabyte 660 Ti (with the same combination of TL431 and RT8802A) and I have separated the anode of the TL431 electrically in the same way. What I got was the same result - instable, high VDD, a lot of boost and some problems to start my computer. We have recommended the Power Edition in our roundup verbally and I feel cheated as a reviewer as well as the readers. Sorry for my poor English but I try to improve it ;)
A piece of advice to all the "enthusiasts" (most of them teenagers looking for faulty activities):
Overclocking & overvolting are faulty activities.
It means extra heat, instability and shorter lifetime.
Period.
If you want to buy OC (factory overclocked) components, the choice is yours.
But don't expect to overclock/overvolt them more.
Even if you can, that's "accelerated death".
The bottom line:
If MSI states "3 years warranty" for a OC product, we don't have any subject of discussion here.
:oc:
 

Bernhard

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As the author of the article, I thank you for providing an honest post about the situation and some further insight. The Google translation you will agree does not come across too well.  ;)
Appreciate the post.
 

FormatC

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Google is sometimes worse than a propaganda minister. Mistranslations provide misunderstandings and stupid rumors often enough. :D

The information is uncomfortable for MSI, I admit - but the reader must read the whole story from A to Z to understand the reason why. The feedback from some stores gives me right - PSU exchange actions, motherboard changes and at the end all depends on a single graphics card. We considered almost 2 weeks: can we bring the story or not. Therefore, it is also a 6-page article with a technical statement rather than a simple news.
 

Bernhard

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I fully understand, thus my careful read through your article. Fortunately I can understand German, something that most on this forum don't. The Google translation does not do justice to the article as I mentioned before.

From my perspective, any user that opts for an OC'ed article is most probably prepared to OC even more and is hopefully aware of the potential reduced lifespan of the OC'ed components. It goes with the territory. Here, MSI was honest enough by marketing the most OC'able cards in the market and still offer the full guarantee. Quite a bold move I would say.
If users are ignorant to potential reduced lifespan of overclocked components, then they live in a dreamworld.

 

RemusM

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Bernhard said:
From my perspective, any user that opts for an OC'ed article is most probably prepared to OC even more and is hopefully aware of the potential reduced lifespan of the OC'ed components. It goes with the territory. Here, MSI was honest enough by marketing the most OC'able cards in the market and still offer the full guarantee. Quite a bold move I would say.
If users are ignorant to potential reduced lifespan of overclocked components, then they live in a dreamworld.
:biggthumbsup:
Most (>90%) of the graphic cards fail after 6-8 years.
That's their lifetime.
Obviously, if you overclock/overvolt them, they die faster.
If you are an "enthusiast", they will die MUCH faster.
So I think "3 years warranty" is more than enough.
:beerchug:
 

flobelix

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As MSI tech already confirmed us what you (FormatC) found out we have clarification that this issue really exists. As I'm also able to read the original article I still can't resist the feeling of it having some more attitude in it as as it would be required to point out technical facts. None the less extreme oc the users buying this card were going for and that had been cheered by press doesn't come without a risk. None the less that risk is and was on MSI's side so the levele of panic generated by the way of presenting the issue can't be endorsed.

FormatC said:
A little part in English from our news - but: "Sorry, you are not allowed to post external links. "
Nice forum :(
Yeah, to prevent spam users aren't allowed to place external links before they made at least ten posts. An unnecessary and obviously provocative post. So far for independent press. 

FormatC said:
Personal note:
This heavy overvoltage (I'm waiting for a response from Richtek) is a dirty cheat. I took a Gigabyte 660 Ti (with the same combination of TL431 and RT8802A) and I have separated the anode of the TL431 electrically in the same way. What I got was the same result - instable, high VDD, a lot of boost and some problems to start my computer. We have recommended the Power Edition in our roundup verbally and I feel cheated as a reviewer as well as the readers. Sorry for my poor English but I try to improve it
As you are no user you should feel cheated by yourself for not having investigated by what that level of oc is caused if you were supposed to technically review a product. Also can't remember other card manufacturers like EVGA or Zotac stated for the customer their extreme oc card would use overvoltage of the gpu (that by the way means running it out of specs) none the less I missed someone crying out...
 

Nelly.

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Any clarification that this doesn't effect the MSI GTX 680 Lightning?
 

FormatC

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As you are no user you should feel cheated by yourself for not having investigated by what that level of oc is caused if you were supposed to technically review a product.
How do you know that? I gave my wife a GTX 670 PE and it's just now one of my personal problems :D
We also had to replace the power supply, because the old Corsair had to high voltages at 12 V.

To get the extra boost with RT8802A the pin-mode still works (I tried it myself). Why use such a nonsense wiring?  Other companies make other mistakes, right. But this is not an Asus or EVGA card. Who makes mistakes should not always point to the others... :)

@nelly:
No problems with the GTX 680 or 660 (non-Ti)
 

flobelix

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FormatC said:
How do you know that? I gave my wife a GTX 670 PE and it's just now one of my personal problems :D
FormatC said:
We have recommended the Power Edition in our roundup verbally and I feel cheated as a reviewer as well as the readers
Further questions on why you are no normal user? It's pretty irrelevant what your wife got.

FormatC said:
To get the extra boost with RT8802A the pin-mode still works ( tried it by myself). Why use such a nonsense wiring?  Other companies make other mistakes, right. But this is not an Asus or EVGA card. Who makes mistakes should not always point to the others...
:rolleyes: It was not pointed to other companies but to press (who as already stated cheered the unusually high high oc results).

At least nice to see my expections about the attitude of the article are finally confirmed.

 

FormatC

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At least nice to see my expections about the attitude of the article are finally confirmed.
I can draw two conclusions from this reaction:
- It is undesirable if journalists not only cheer, but sometimes use their brain
- The interests of customers (of which I happen to be one am) not interested

It is now clear to me why the card immediately after the review was called back and  :censored:  happens that I have a second, separate card (from my own money)

It is very unfortunate that an open and unemotional discussion is not possible and I will not comment further on this, but my time is too precious. Really a shame. You need the press only to have to cheer you. If this attitude is representative of MSI..  Something learned. Thx.
 
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