MSI: Making cards faster than Nvidia Allows

flobelix

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I can draw two conclusions from this reaction:
- It is undesirable if journalists not only cheer, but sometimes use their brain
- The interests of customers (of which I happen to be one am) not interested
:rolleyes: Well, the unemotional could not be found from you on this so far. Also no one said critics won't be respected what I said was don't say you got cheated as a reviewer when you just cheer without reviewing. Also the interests of customers is so much interested the"cheating" is fully covered by warranty and also was before this more emotional than unemotional article.

FormatC said:
It is now clear to me why the card immediately after the review was called back and    happens that I have a second, separate card (from my own money)
:lol_anim: Yeah, MSI was so afraid of your possible investigations they called it back.

It is very unfortunate that an open and unemotional discussion is not possible and I will not comment further on this, but my time is too precious. Really a shame. You need the press only to have to cheer you. If this attitude is representative of MSI..  Something learned. Thx.
Unfortunately as I already said your appearance here lacked being unemotional from the intial post. Also no one (including me) said we need press to only cheer none the less MSI also doesn't need press to cheer and then bash because of an "issue" not causing any problems for the user.

None the less I suppose you didn't get that this is a users-to-users forum (although clearly stated) and that I'm no MSI official.
 

Nelly.

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Surely if more volts are being supposingly used, then the power consumption would be greater... :confused2:

As an example, how come power consumption is higher on the Asus GTX 670 DirectCu II TOP, compared to the MSI GTX 670 PE, if the Asus is supposingly using less volts?

PS:  Infact this graph doesn't show the exact picture, the MSI GTX 670 PE has the LOWEST! Power consumption in terms of overall average, compared to it's competitors, only the reference GTX 670 beats it!

 

flobelix

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The overvoltage this is all about does not concern the gpu so won't make a real difference for consumption. Also the starting up issue has never been reported on this forum although we are adressing a global audience while the few reports are from the german Tom's Hardware site only (and some competing manufacturers). So quite odd that problem did not show up here first where more customers of those very popular cards are around. 
 

HU16E

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I guess that is why I only purchase reference VGA's! Don't have to deal with all this BS, and they OC quite good (if I do at all) on default voltage. :lol_anim:

Added: After reading this complete thread again, it does seem more of a crying 'foul' over a company that gets a performance edge over it's competition. If it is a legal modification between nVidia and MSI, who does it hurt? Just jealous other manufacturers, that's who. Everybody already forget the G.Skill and ASUS collaboration on the RAM manipulation so they worked on only ASUS mainboards and maybe a couple others? They left MSI and some others out of those goings on. MSI and others had to create special UEFI/BIOS's just to get them to work. Welcome to the real world of trying to gain a better piece of the market share!

Image of second place winners;

 

Bernhard

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In order to better understand what this is all about, its probably best if the english user community can read a quick overview in English, rather than having to rely on a bad Google translation of the German article.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/MSI-GTX-660-670-overvolting-PowerEdition,18013.html
 

badboy2k

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so what if its off spec as the only thing its really doing is giving more voltage to parts and the MOD to the referance design was aproved by Nvidia so i cant see what the big deal is really!

like froggy said its more that the competitors to MSI are sore because the to spec cards with the same GPU's got Nuked by msi's out of spec unit. I'd be happy to have one and laugth till it died... then get another card lol.
 

Bernhard

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Overclockers are always on the lookout for extra performance and manually even adjust voltages beyond the design specifications. So this is probably an overclockers delight.  ;)
Its up to each user to decide if they prefer such a model. Nothing wrong with that. I perused the article and it provided me with better information on how this is achieved and as such I have the ability to excercise my choice and decide if I prefer this additional boost or not. It carries a full guarantee, so as a user I am covered. If however I have start up problems, as has been reported as one of the side effects, then at least I will also know what the potential cause may be.
 

Kilboy

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I read the article so came here looking for a bit of clarification. I have the 670 Power Edition with the twin frozr fans, I have no intentions of overclocking it beyond what it's factory settings. Do I need to be concerned?

Are their any indicators I would need to watch out for that it may be failing or would it just go bang and stop working?

I originally bought the normal 670 with the 5% overclock and this failed after a couple of months. Started to get 'driver has been reset' errors which slowly became more frequent and started locking up the computer - was this just a bad card or is it connected to this issue?

This new card seems to be working fine and personally I wouldn't expect to be using it for for more than 3 years before I upgrade so I'm covered by the warranty if it blows up?

Is there going to be some kind of product recall? Or is just gonna be a very minor proportion of cards and hardware setups which are affected?

Thanks.
 

badboy2k

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kilboy where are you located in the world? that way we can work out what the warenty for the card will be!

the Modifacation is just supplying full voltage to the power phase chip and shouldn't really affect its life span very much (maybe 2-3monts less then a referance) so its not really as big an issue as is being portrayed.

the problem from this that is being reported is one of not being compatable with very old motherboards (PCI-E gen1). but most newer ones should have no problems (PCI-E gen2 or 3).

I doubt a recall happening as the differance was aproved by Nvidia's R&D department and has been verified to not cause the GPU to fail. if anything does go wrong depending on where you are you will be covered by between a 1-3 year warenty (that range is Dependant on location geographically) as soon as we know where you live we will tell you how long your covered!


note: i did a little lookup on your IP for contary of origan and it seems like your in the UK so 3 years on Graphics Cards.
 

Kilboy

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Cheers. Yes in the UK.

PCIE 2 on the motherboard so should be ok.

Thanks for the quick response.
 

Sharchaster

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for MSI I just want to ask

you say all of MSI 670 PE card have covered by 3 year warranty, right? but why in my country just only 2 year? or it depends on each country policy? because I have an MSI 670 PE/OC Card and Z77 MPower motherboard, and I am very interest to overclock it.

Any answer from you, would be much appreciated

Thanks,

Sharchaster
 

flobelix

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Sharcaster said:
or it depends on each country policy?
Exactly,  http://www.msi.com/service/warranty/ - Warranty Term for vga is "Depending on territory". So depends on where you are. Most markets it is three years maybe it's not where you are as I don't know about that location.
None the less you can oc without a problem it is not like these cards are going to explode. Not a single case of dying card has been reported although some users here are quite extremely oc'ing their PEs
 

Warner

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1. MSI respects the result which is tested by Tom?s Hardware, but we have much confidence and believe our products would not cause any customer RMA concerns.
2. Since MSI designs these custom products with overclocking in mind, we ?supercharge? these cards because we?re anticipating enthusiast to overclock. Because of this design decision and the higher component quality, we?re able to provide more power to the board resulting in higher and longer GPU Boost operation without reducing the lifetime of the graphics card or warranty term.
3. MSI?s all graphics cards including GTX 670 and GTX 660 Ti passed strict test and stand behind our products with a 3 year warranty.
 

flobelix

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:biggthumbsup: Thanks Warner for pointing this out. Hope this will calm all the concerns down
 

Sharchaster

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Thanks for the fast response, flobelix

I'm from Indonesian, and is about 2 years warranty up there....

one question, If my Card is got a problem because of overclocking, can I still RMA the card?
 

damric

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This nonsense makes me lol.

I for one, would rather get this version of the card. Haters gonna hate because it outperforms the other brands.

FFS it got a 9.7/10 rating from W1zzard at TPU, arguably the world's leading expert on graphics cards.


What I find surprising is that MSI's card is faster than many other GTX 660 Ti cards reviewed today even though it's running lower base and boost clocks. As you probably know, base and boost clocks on Kepler are marketing values - the actual card will run different clock speeds due to NVIDIA's Boost Clock Algorithm. It seems that MSI has added some secret sauce, no other board partner has, to their card's BIOS. One indicator of this is that they raised the card's default power limit from 130 W to 175 W, which will certainly help in many situations. During normal gaming, we see no increased power consumption due to this change. The card essentially uses the same power as other cards, but is faster - leading to improved performance per Watt.< br />Overclocking works great as well and reaches the highest real-life performance, despite not reaching the lowest GPU clock. This is certainly an interesting development. We will, hopefully, see more board partners pick up this change.
 

HU16E

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one question, If my Card is got a problem because of overclocking, can I still RMA the card?
I would say Warner answered that;

Warner said:
1. MSI respects the result which is tested by Tom?s Hardware, but we have much confidence and believe our products would not cause any customer RMA concerns.
2. Since MSI designs these custom products with overclocking in mind, we ?supercharge? these cards because we?re anticipating enthusiast to overclock. Because of this design decision and the higher component quality, we?re able to provide more power to the board resulting in higher and longer GPU Boost operation without reducing the lifetime of the graphics card or warranty term.
3. MSI?s all graphics cards including GTX 670 and GTX 660 Ti passed strict test and stand behind our products with a 3 year warranty.
I for one, would rather get this version of the card. Haters gonna hate because it outperforms the other brands. FFS it got a 9.7/10 rating from W1zzard at TPU, arguably the world's leading expert on graphics cards.
:biggthumbsup:
 

Wake

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Out of interest I got a few questions for the MSI-Support:

1) What if the concerned cards cause no-POST because the Power Good-signal fails?
Doesn't this cause unnecessary woes for end-users who might think their PSU or motherboard is defective/not powerful enough, when in reality it is the graphics card causing it?
I mean you can't expect every MSI-buyer to know about this "quirk" of this specific card, so people who are uninformed and just search or post in forums for advice what to do next most likely will get advice to check/exchange the PSU etc. since that is standard procedure for such failure-patterns.
If the buyer knows of this (and/or maybe even has a replacement card to check that the rest of the system is ok, which is a lot to ask for most people), will MSI honour RMA?
*edit* What if the buyer doesn't know and MSI tries to put the blame on his system (since the card works perfectly fine in their tests)? *edit*

2) Since the Richtek RT8802A runs up to 88% over spec (up to 9.3V according to Tom's), doesn't this put too much strain on the component?
Doesn't this increase the chance of it blowing up (outside of normal failure rates)?
I wouldn't dare to think it could be a fire hazard, since I sincerely doubt MSI would release the product then.
But what about longevity? Were there any tests conducted about that or was it just released in good faith?
And what does Richtek think about running their component in this way?

3) How does Nvidia feel about this whole thing, since they seem to be adamant to limit overvolting?
Is this the result of chipmakers being more wary about running out-of-spec the lower we get on the nm-scale (since smaller manufacturing processes don't seem to take more Voltage as well, see Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge too)?


I highly doubt I'll get an answer on the relations between companies in the last 2 questions, but included them nonetheless for completion.

Please don't take this post as offensive to MSI or as to incite FUD against them, I tried hard to stay objective and include as little ambiguous expressions as possible (and as my non-native language skills allow).

Best regards,
Wake
 

HU16E

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Will MSI honour RMA?  Since the Richtek RT8802A runs up to 88% over spec (up to 9.3V according to Tom's), doesn't this put too much strain on the component?
:think:  Did you read Reply #32? No offense, but most of your inquiry has been covered and answered by an official MSI employee!
 

Wake

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Froggy Gremlin said:
:think:  Did you read Reply #32? No offense, but most of your inquiry has been covered and answered by an official MSI employee!
Please don't quote me out of context. It seems though I didn't word that as clear as I should have.

Let me elaborate:
The PC of an end-user that is uninformed about the cards "quirk" doesn't start up.
User sends in card to MSI (after likely trying stuff centring about motherboard, PSU - as this failure-pattern more often than not point strongly to those components).
MSI says the card isn't faulty as it starts on their test system (different components including a PSU which doesn't have the Power Good-issue).

So only if the end-user knows about that particular "quirk", he/she can object against MSI trying to put the blame on the user's system (which wouldn't be deliberately malicious or anything, since the card works without problems in their test-bed).
However, even getting a replacement card with the same "quirk" could end up in the same symptoms (Power Good-signal fault and no-POST) again since the card is designed as intended by MSI.


For the second part, I believe you refer to this:
"2. Since MSI designs these custom products with overclocking in mind, we ?supercharge? these cards because we?re anticipating enthusiast to overclock. Because of this design decision and the higher component quality, we?re able to provide more power to the board resulting in higher and longer GPU Boost operation without reducing the lifetime of the graphics card or warranty term."

As far as I've seen, nothing indicates that the component in question is specifically designed to run out-of-spec. It seems bog-standard, so to say.
If a Military Class III-version of the Richtek RT8802A is used (if such a thing exists I doubt there wouldn't be any specs to find about it), I'll apologize.


PS: I use the word quirk in quotes for a lack of a better description.
I refuse to call it issue, problem or even worse fault, since I recognize that this would just be FUD.
 
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