MSI PRO Z790-P Wifi won't boot after BIOS update

[soul.cai157202db]

Hi guys, how are you?

I'm having a huge problema with my MSI motherboard after the update of bios. I got the last version of it directly from the MSI website, all the process runned with no problems. When the flash bios finished and computer restarted, a lot os bsod's popped, with different stop code messages. I counted at least 5 or 6.

I tried a lot of things, even searching in here. Another bios version, clear cmos, switched the RAM to another slot, i even tried another video card and nothing.

The Windows don't boot and when a try to boot with a pen drive for a fresh windows installation, the bsod shows up. I simply cannot pass beyond the MSI logo screen. In the rare times that happen, few seconds later the bsod shows up.

You guys have any idea of what i can do?

Follow my setup below:

- Core i7 14700K

- MSI PRO Z790-P Wifi

- 2 x 16gb Kingston Fury

- Corsair HX1000w

- GeForce RTX 3070 ti

 

[citay]

First, simplify the system as much as possible. You can take out the GPU, and use only one RAM module in slot A2. What's your cooler?
Can you show a screenshot of the BIOS under "Hardware Monitor" where it shows the voltages and temperatures?

- Corsair HX1000w

Is this the original one? Blue sticker, circa 2008, only 80PLUS White, 5 years warranty? Or the much newer grey-sticker one, 80PLUS Platinum, 10 years warranty, circa 2017? Because if it's the original, you should 100% replace it with a new PSU by now, see my Guide: How to find a good PSU.

 

[soul.cai157202db]

What's your cooler?

I use the water cooler Lian Li GA II Trinity SL-INF 360 on my setup.

Is this the original one? Blue sticker, circa 2008, only 80PLUS White, 5 years warranty? Or the much newer grey-sticker one, 80PLUS Platinum, 10 years warranty, circa 2017?

You got me on this one. hehe
Here the box of it.

Can you show a screenshot of the BIOS under "Hardware Monitor" where it shows the voltages and temperatures?

This screens?

About the stop codes of the BSODs, follow some of them bellow:
PAGE FAULT INNON PAGED AREA
KMODE EXCEPTION NOT HANDLED
CRITICAL PROCESS DIED
SYSTEM THREAD EXCEPTION NOT HANDLED
DRIVER OVERRAN STACK BUFFER
IRQL NOT LESS OR EQUAL

That some of the errors i caught of all blue screens that was showed.

 

[citay]

I use the water cooler Lian Li GA II Trinity SL-INF 360 on my setup.

Adequately powerful cooler for this CPU, good.

You got me on this one. hehe
Here the box of it.

Oh ok, it's the HX1000i ATX 3.0/3.1. That came out in 2023 and is a very good and new model.

This screens?

Yes, those. I wanted to see some basic stuff like CPU temperature etc., but it all looks normal.

Another bios version, clear cmos, switched the RAM to another slot, i even tried another video card and nothing.

Ok, you tried another GPU, but have you tried only with the iGPU of the 14700K? That way you rule out the GPU completely.

Just so i understand correctly: On the old BIOS version, it ran completely fine? Do you know what kind of settings you had changed in the old BIOS?

Your RAM in the BIOS only shows as 16GB total, were you trying with only one module in slot A2?

 

[soul.cai157202db]

Ok, you tried another GPU, but have you tried only with the iGPU of the 14700K?

I will try with the onboard GPU in here. I didn't notice until now that the motherboard has a HDMI integrated. hehehe

On the old BIOS version, it ran completely fine? Do you know what kind of settings you had changed in the old BIOS?

The main reason for the bios update i made was because of the temperature of the 14700K. With the original bios, the V-Core was always high, about 1.6, causing overheating. Only with the google chrome open, the temperature was 85, 90 degrees, sometimes higher.

Searching on the internet, i discover that some new bios of the MSI MOBO resolved that problem and in fact, after the update, the v-core and temperature was more stable.

But now i keep having this BSOD's after the MSI Logo.

I used a undervolt for a long time, but started to have some problems when i turn the computer, making me turn it off and turn again, until he move on for the msi logo.

Your RAM in the BIOS only shows as 16GB total, were you trying with only one module in slot A2?

Yeah, exactly.

 

[FlyingScot]

It sounds like it could be a degraded CPU that has become accustomed to high voltages and is unstable with lower voltage. Perhaps the new BIOS has somehow lowered the voltages, especially during transient loads like boot time. If you are trying to run with a vanilla set of BIOS settings via Optimized defaults (especially with disabled XMP) and are unstable then I would imagine you would have a good case for an Intel replacement under the extended warranty.

You won’t be the first person on the forum who updated BIOS to the most recent version and then exposed a case of degradation.
The last one was a 14900K that was eventually replaced under warranty by the store that built the PC.

 

[citay]

The main reason for the bios update i made was because of the temperature of the 14700K. With the original bios, the V-Core was always high, about 1.6, causing overheating. Only with the google chrome open, the temperature was 85, 90 degrees, sometimes higher.

First off, those temperatures and VCore are crazy high for a low-load scenario, and they can't be fully explained by an outdated BIOS. No previous BIOS version caused something crazy like this, so what you would have to had done at this point was to run some monitoring software like HWinfo and check all the board/CPU/etc. sensors to see what is going on. Something might have created high CPU load for things to go that crazy, because that is not normal. Or have you maybe enabled GameBoost before (which is no good, see here)? That could go some ways to explain something like this.

Also, were you aware of the problems that can occur when using a true 13th/14th gen CPU with an older BIOS version? What BIOS version did you have before, do you happen to know? And how heavily was the PC used? Because Intel had huge issues with CPU degradation from voltage spikes, triggered by a buggy microcode that was bundled in older BIOS versions. This is a seperate issue from what you observed with the high temperatures and such. These voltage spikes, they don't mean a high baseline voltage, they mean very short blips of a high voltage, but which can damage the CPU over time.

Around half a year ago, you almost couldn't escape the videos and articles about this voltage spike issue on Youtube etc. if you followed any tech news (of course not everyone follows these things). Nobody expected an issue of this magnitude that can actually make CPUs unstable within some months of use.

So as FlyingScot mentioned, you might now be witnessing the effects of CPU degradation, because for the first time, the BIOS might use default settings instead of whatever was set before (as i mentioned, one explanation would be GameBoost).

We have to carefully analyze if your CPU might already have suffered from deterioration, which is a possibility. I wrote this guide where i show how to optimize an Intel CPU for better efficiency and not have it overpower the cooling. I recommend that guide for anyone with a halfway recent Intel CPU, but for the second step of the guide to work properly, the CPU has to be healthy. If the CPU suffered deterioration from running on an old BIOS version (with buggy microcode) for too long, then step 2) of the guide cannot work.

But what you can do is step 1) from my guide, and then for step 2), first tell me what the BIOS default mode for that is at the moment (i explain everything in the guide), and maybe - instead of lowering the mode for improvement in efficiency - we might have to test an even higher mode, just to see if it can help stabilize your CPU. And if it does, you might be looking at an RMA of this CPU, as it might have been subjected to the damaging voltage spikes from the buggy microcode in the old BIOS for too long. But of course, that's only speculation until it's been tested.

 

[soul.cai157202db]

What BIOS version did you have before, do you happen to know?

I forgot to save the version of the original BIOS.

And how heavily was the PC used?

I work making videos using OBS, editing with premiere and making thumbnails with photoshop. Even doing livestreams and other stuff, so in many cases the CPU reached 100 degrees, but not constantly. Some games forced him more, others not so much.

Also, were you aware of the problems that can occur when using a true 13th/14th gen CPU with an older BIOS version?

I became aware of those problemas recently, unfortunately. In the MSI official BIOS website, one the versions for download added Support 14th Gen CPU, according with the descriptions.

I wrote this guide where i show how to optimize an Intel CPU for better efficiency and not have it overpower the cooling.

I will try this guide. I used undervolt for a long time, making the cpu reach 70, 75 degrees with low processes, and with heavy use, 85, 90 degrees. Sometimes 100!

first tell me what the BIOS default mode for that is at the moment

I didn't understand that last part, sorry. hehehe
.

 

[soul.cai157202db]

instead of lowering the mode for improvement in efficiency - we might have to test an even higher mode

Could be a good test try to high the voltage of the cpu, similar to the value a used before the bios update? If, for some reason, the BSOD stop showing could be a proof of degradation, right?

 

[citay]

I don't know why your CPU ran this hot. In idle, an Intel CPU (doesn't matter the model) draws less than 10W, so usually you should have 30, 35, 40°C in idle. With light load, maybe 50°C range or so. If you see 75°C with low load, then either the load is higher than you think, or something isn't configured correctly. If you see 100°C, that means your power limits are not set properly for your cooling (which is what step 1 from my guide is about).

I didn't understand that last part, sorry. hehehe

Yes, i didn't want to put it all into one post, since i explain it better in my guide. You will see that step 2) of the guide is about a particular setting called "CPU Lite Load", it has a certain default mode. I want to know what this default mode is for you. And then, contrary to the guide where i show how to find the lowest stable mode for this setting, we might have to raise the mode instead. Because when you have an unstable CPU for whatever reason, then there are usually two ways to get it more stable: Lower the frequency, or increase the voltage. Whereas, with a healthy CPU, you would be able to lower the voltage a bit and still stay fully stable (a way of undervolting). But with a CPU that is already unstable at default settings, it would only get more unstable with lower voltage, and it would need higher voltage instead. Not saying this is necessarily the case here, but we need to test this.

 

[soul.cai157202db]

Yes, i didn't want to put it all into one post, since i explain it better in my guide. You will see that step 2) of the guide is about a particular setting called "CPU Lite Load", it has a certain default mode. I want to know what this default mode is for you.

Niiiice, i get it now. Here are values for my cpu now on the OC Settings of the MSI.

I used for a time the cpu load lite configuration for undervolt too, before the bios update.

 

[FlyingScot]

Wow!! CPU Lite Load Mode 16 is like totally INSANE!!! EDIT: Perhaps the issue is that you are now running too much voltage. At least by following Citay's advice/guide you'll eventually arrive at an obvious conclusion. EDIT: which of my conclusions, if any, is the correct one, i.e. too little voltage or too much voltage. The other issues, like high temperatures, will obviously need to be addressed in a holistic way. First by trying to reduce voltage (which reduces heat) and second by taking a closer look at your total cooling solution function and Wattage cooling capabilities. I'll leave you guys to start experimenting. It will be interesting to see what the final resolution is. If nothing stabilizes this CPU then degradation is a serious consideration. I have a sneaky feeling that a degraded CPU can run hotter due to leakage of voltage across the silicon. But I'm no electrical engineer, so it's just an anecdotal theory based upon a limited dataset.
Good luck!

 

[soul.cai157202db]

Uau!! O Modo de Carregamento 16 da CPU Lite é totalmente INSANO!!! Talvez o problema seja que agora você está executando muita voltagem. Pelo menos seguindo o conselho/guia do Citay, você eventualmente chegará a qual das minhas conclusões, se houver, é a correta, ou seja, pouca voltagem ou muita voltagem. Os outros problemas, como altas temperaturas, obviamente precisarão ser abordados de forma holística. Primeiro, tentando reduzir a voltagem (o que reduz o calor) e, segundo, dando uma olhada mais de perto na função da solução de resfriamento total e nas capacidades de resfriamento de Wattage. Vou deixar vocês começarem a experimentar. Será interessante ver qual é a resolução final. Se nada estabilizar esta CPU, então a degradação é uma consideração séria. Tenho um pressentimento furtivo de que uma CPU degradada pode funcionar mais quente devido ao vazamento de voltagem através do silício. Mas não sou engenheiro elétrico, então é apenas uma teoria anedótica baseada em um conjunto de dados limitado.
Boa sorte!

O que achei estranho é que mesmo com o Modo 16 no modo Load Lite, meu v-core está bem baixo em comparação com o que era antes da atualização do BIOS.

 

[FlyingScot]

Can you give us an idea of the Vcore now versus before using an apples-to-apples comparison, e.g. like Cinebench R23, etc? Also, do you know if the idle voltage has changed dramatically?

 

[citay]

Wow!! CPU Lite Load Mode 16 is like totally INSANE!!!

But it's expected by now, see Explained: How the new BIOS versions are causing higher temperatures. I've actually seen a default Mode 22 a few times...

Yes, Mode 16 is needlessly high for almost all healthy CPUs, however, if it really is degraded from voltage spikes already, then even this might not be enough to stabilize it. And from what was reported, on the old BIOS, it ran at way too high voltage (as stated in the BIOS). The only explanation i have for this is that maybe GameBoost was enabled in the old BIOS (on purpose or by accident). This would've caused a fixed all-core OC and raised VCore.

And while there is no data about it, i presume that with GameBoost enabled, the voltage spike bug in the old microcode (bundled in the old BIOS) might potentially even have a more devastating/faster effect.

It's a shame that we can't check the "before" state anymore, it sounds very curious. But now i would try a few different modes for CPU Lite Load, see if that can help stability. Usually you have to add voltage (a lower VCore helping stability would be a total exception). So first try Mode 18-22, something around there.

About doing step 1) first, i later remembered that you can't even boot Windows right now, so obviously this step cannot really be performed yet. So keep that all like it is, just modify the CPU Lite Load mode and see what happens. Higher mode adds voltage, lower mode subtracts.

 

[soul.cai157202db]

But now i would try a few different modes for CPU Lite Load

I did some tests here alternating the lite load between modes 18-23. The only one that had a little more stability was mode 21 and 23. 22 i got blue screen. My pen drive booted and when I started to press next, on the screen where he should load the SSD for installation, a black screen appeared and the system restarted.

But one strange thing I noticed. Switching the lite load modes, my vCore always stays the same, between 0.940v and 0.950v. Is this normal? The voltage should change too, right?

 

[citay]

The BIOS only shows the voltage for one state with pretty much zero load (but some power-saving mechanisms not fully working yet in the BIOS). Once there is some load, VCore will vary a lot (depending how much of which kind of load on how many cores etc.). You can't say anything about the CPU voltage just by looking at what the BIOS shows for it. Unless it's very high in there already, then you know something weird is going on, probably related to overclocking.

How high do the modes go? Mode 23 is max?

 

[soul.cai157202db]

So keep that all like it is, just modify the CPU Lite Load mode and see what happens.

Doing some more tests here. The modes 21, 22 and 23 made me interact with the screen boot, at least. But when i try to install the windows a black screen appears and the system resets. Beside the lite load, there's some other thing we can try?

Anything below mode 21 and the blue screens start to pop off again. This seems like a problem with my processor, right?

 

[soul.cai157202db]

How high do the modes go? Mode 23 is max?

Yeah, 23 is max.

 

[citay]

Anything below mode 21 and the blue screens start to pop off again. This seems like a problem with my processor, right?

It would appear so. And like i said, the possible scenario is, you ran an old BIOS/microcode (causing voltage spikes) for months, you also might have (inadvertently?) turned on some overclocking, which made the CPU run at 1.6V and very high temperatures (even with low load). But despite all the downsides this caused (high power draw, high temperatures, thermal throttling...), it effectively could have masked any stability problems from CPU deterioration. I guess with 1.6V, you can make almost anything stable again. But of course this is no way for a CPU to run, even the performance will suffer because it will start to enter thermal throttling very quickly.

Now in the new BIOS, for the first time the CPU has to run with default settings. Despite MSI having cranked up the default mode for CPU Lite Load now, this still might not be nearly enough for your degraded CPU anymore. If the above assumptions aren't totally off, then your CPU might be ripe for a replacement by Intel.

By the way, did you build this PC yourself, or did someone / some company build it for you? Maybe they have implemented some weird overclocking when they initially set this up. Which already didn't work well before (from the voltages and temperatures you mentioned), and a 14700K is already a monster as it is, if you try to overclock it, it will usually only make everything worse. But now, coupled with the late BIOS update (running too long with voltage spikes), it might have caused extreme deterioration in the end.

To be clear, the late BIOS update is not your fault, they can't expect every Intel 13th/14th gen user to follow all the news about any issues. This is Intel's fault, and if it's really as assumed here, then they have to replace the CPU for you.

Of course, ideally you would test with a different CPU (any 12th-14th gen, even a Celeron) to confirm that the CPU is the culprit.