MSI PRO z790-s DOA?

[fmesa870157202e0]

I built a rig with entirely new components using the parametric filter on pcpartpicker around a PRO Z790-S Wifi, hoping to plug an Intel 14900k into it. Although all fans run and RGB on my RAM and GPU light up, it would not get to POST. The video input wasn't detected at all. I tried troubleshooting (moving RAM around, checking wires, reseating GPU, checking power supply, mobo and GPU display input with DP and HDMI with 2 different monitors). I then realized it might be the BIOS incompatibility, which I ignored thinking I would update the BIOS first thing. Just to rule out of faulty components, I took it to a nearby repair shop, and they also concluded that the mobo BIOS was the issue. I purchased an Intel Celeron g6900, a 12th gen chip should be compatible with the mobo out of the box (it was suggested elsewhere on this forum - https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?...-gen-intel-cpu-what-if-it-doesnt-work.390566/) and tried booting with it, but I'm encountering the same issue. I even plugged in a mobo speaker and am receiving no beeps whatsoever. Tried the same troubleshooting steps above, but nothing seems to be working. Am I missing a troubleshooting step here, or is this mobo likely DOA?

 

[citay]

I built a rig with entirely new components using the parametric filter on pcpartpicker around a PRO Z790-S Wifi, hoping to plug an Intel 14900k into it.

The very first sentence makes me want to write something. This is the wrong board for a 14900K, no matter what PCPartPicker says. See here.
Here i explain more how the board makers always try to save money on the VRM components whenever possible.

This is the lowest-end board model of all the Z-series boards, and they have really gone too far with the costdown measures there (even for Z690 they didn't have such a low-end model yet). It's using discrete MOSFETS for the VRM, this is not the right solution anymore with the insanely high power draw of a 14900K. Under full load, this VRM cannot handle it properly (it has high switching losses, so at such high power draw the resulting heat in the VRM becomes too much and you can have VRM-induced thermal throttling). That's apart from your CPU cooling, which can of course also be a huge issue with this CPU model. But the VRM made up of such cheap components will also complain with this CPU.

Then the fact that they left out the absolutely crucial EZ Debug LEDs and Flash BIOS Button, and use the weird WiFi solution with the antenna bracket. If we then consider that the MSI PRO Z790-P WIFI, which does all three things better already, costs maybe ~10 EUR/USD more, this PRO Z790-S model should have never even made it onto the market. The PRO Z790-S is like selling a car model without windscreen wipers, just to hit an even lower price point, it makes no sense to buy it. And on this board, you can't add the features later. The absolute minimum for a 14900K is a board that has a Flash BIOS Button so you can update the BIOS without a hassle, and that's using powerstages for the CPU VRM, so that would be the Z790-P WIFI. Anything lower does not match this i9 CPU with a huge power draw.

Now, as to your G6900 not booting. Since this board doesn't even have the all-important EZ Debug LEDs for troubleshooting, we can't even easily tell if the board is DOA (no LEDs coming on at all) or if you'd get the CPU LED. But i will say this: Whatever the underlying problem may be, you will still have the additional problem of needing to update the BIOS to the latest version before the 14th gen CPU can work in there.

Anyway, i would do the following. Take off the CPU cooler, take out the CPU, and check for bent pins in the CPU socket, which can easily happen from some mistake during CPU installation. Also see here and the following posts. The pins all have to look completely uniform under light, like rows of soldiers. See if there are ones that look different from the rest, and if so, take some photos, upload to https://imgbb.com/ for example, and link them here. With bent socket pins, you can have problems with whatever CPU you put in there. So this has to be ruled out early.

If you really want to do it right though, you should replace this board with a model that's matching the high-end CPU. Don't pair a low-end board model (even within a Z-series chipset range) with a high-end CPU, always go at least mid-range on the board, so they don't try to save too much money on important components.

The only problem will be if you have bent pins. Because those are usually seen as user-inflicted damage which therefore is not covered by the warranty, even the vendor might say that they don't take the board back. But we'll see what you got.

Also list all your hardware in detail please (cooler, PSU, RAM, drives, GPU)... and check that you haven't made a very basic mistake, like not plugging two 8-pin EPS cables into CPU_PWR1 and 2 on the top left of the board. Check that they're fully latched on, on the PSU side and board side.

 

[fmesa870157202e0]

The very first sentence makes me want to write something. This is the wrong board for a 14900K, no matter what PCPartPicker says. See here.
Here i explain more how the board makers always try to save money on the VRM components whenever possible.

First off, thank for sharing your insight in this incredibly thorough response - I truly appreciate it. Had I been aware of the hassles of buying the bottom tier mobo (or even known it was the bottom tier), I would have gladly paid for a better model to begin with. It was not my intention to go "cheap" on the mobo, and I was probably a bit hurried in the process of selecting components for this build. My last build had an MSI mobo (Z370-A PRO) with the debug lights, and I never realized how valuable that feature could be until now. Never had issues with that mobo, though. Hopefully, I can get a refund on the Z790-S so I can put the funds toward the Z790-P.

My list of components:
Intel Core i9-14900K 3.2 GHz 24-Core Processor

Deepcool AK620 ZERO DARK 68.99 CFM CPU Cooler

G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-6000 CL36 Memory

Gigabyte GAMING OC GeForce RTX 4080 SUPER 16 GB Video Card

NZXT C1000 (2022) 1000 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply

No impact on the current issue, but I'll add that I'm reusing my previous tower (Phanteks Enthoo Pro M TG ATX Mid Tower Case) and SSD (Samsung 860 Evo 2 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive). I will probably swap over to an M.2 SSD now that I'm aware of it.

Images of the CPU pins:
https://ibb.co/ZBfdQHN
https://ibb.co/rmmc9Py
https://ibb.co/Vjwpm5N
None appear bent to me, judging by the images I saw in the post you linked.

I feel like I checked power cables at the board and PSU a dozen times, as I was trying everything I knew how to get this rig to run for several hours over the weekend. I'll add that the repair shop also examined my set up and I would hope they also ruled out power connections as an issue... but I appreciate that sometimes the problem is a simple oversight.

 

[citay]

First off, thank for sharing your insight in this incredibly thorough response - I truly appreciate it.

You're welcome, i always try to explain things a bit more thoroughly, and i'm happy when it's appreciated.

Hopefully, I can get a refund on the Z790-S so I can put the funds toward the Z790-P.

Yes. Seeing how the socket pins seem ok, just save yourself the trouble, upgrade to a proper board. I would actually suggest the PRO Z790-A (Max) WIFI. It has some further upgrades over the Z790-P, which come in handy for a system like this.

The graphics card should be good, especially on the quiet BIOS (switch on top of the card set to "silent"). RAM is good, perfect amount nowadays, decent XMP but not overly ambitious, this should cause zero problems. PSU is a nice model, but why go for a PSU with the conventional ATX 2.5x standard, when your graphics card is one that could benefit from an ATX 3.0 PSU with a native 12VHPWR cable? Now you have to use that 3x 8-pin PCIe power cable to 12VHPWR adapter. Anytime you can avoid adapters for little to no upcharge, i would do it.

For this setup, something like the "be quiet! Straight Power 12 850W ATX 3.0" would've been better. 80PLUS Platinum, native cable. Your GPU needs around 320W under full load, and in games, the CPU will be at 100-150W, so this has got all the headroom you want. CPU and GPU are usually never both fully loaded (no game really loads more than 6-8 cores fully).

SSD, yes, you should use a nice high-end M.2 PCIe SSD like a Crucial P5 Plus, WD Black SN850X, Seagate FireCuda 530 or Samung 990 PRO. You can't put in a 14900K and feed it data from a SATA SSD. Well you could, but it would be another case of non-matching hardware. Your case actually seems ok, nice open front. Perhaps a second 120mm fan in the front would be nice.

Lastly, the cooler. We have a powerful air cooler which can take it up with a 240mm AIO and other high-end air coolers. But it will be no match for a 14900K under full multithreaded load. To deal with that amount of heat would require a nice 360mm AIO or better. Now, this is not the end of the world, you're just gonna have to set power limits in the BIOS, and that will make you lose a bit of performance (mostly for such full load on all cores, not with lower load). You should've perhaps read more reviews about what a beast the 14900K is once you try to extract all the performance from it that it's capable of. Personally, i think the i7 is always the better choice for a lot of people, it's usually more well-rounded and less extreme (although the 14700K is also very hot-headed already this time). So, you can keep this cooler, but adjustments will have to be made to avoid thermal throttling under full load.

If you can get the board exchanged for a better model, perhaps even the PSU, then this should hopefully be taken care of. Although it would also be good to troubleshoot this further to find the culprit first, of course. So first, i would test with a different PSU, take out the GPU for that, not necessary for testing. Actually, while i'm writing this down, i just realized something in this very moment, which only serves to underline how crucially important the EZ Debug LEDs are to have on a board:

You might have already been in the BIOS, you just might not have seen it. Sometimes the BIOS is only shown on one of the ports that it defaults to, the screen will get no signal on the other ports. This could even be one of the board's outputs on the rear I/O. Since we can't see the Debug LEDs, we can't know what it happening. Normally, with missing CPU support or another problem, they would stop on the CPU LED. With a RAM problem, the DRAM LED, with GPU, the VGA LED. But if that all passes the tests, it would be on the BOOT LED (since no OS is installed), and it would show the BIOS on perhaps only one of the ports. So try all the outputs and you might be in for a surprise.

Now, this still doesn't invalidate anything i said before about the board. You should try to replace it with a better model. But at least we would know what is going on.

 

[fmesa870157202e0]

I would actually suggest the PRO Z790-A (Max) WIFI. It has some further upgrades over the Z790-P, which come in handy for a system like this.

Is there a significant difference between the A Max and A aside from Wifi 6 vs 7? The cost difference is trivial so I'd lean Max anyway.

Thanks for providing hardware recommendations.

For this setup, something like the "be quiet! Straight Power 12 850W ATX 3.0" would've been better.

I'm returning the PSU (thank goodness for Amazon's easy returns process) and purchasing the PSU you suggested. This was just an oversight on my part about the change in power plugs for my GPU.

SSD, yes, you should use a nice high-end M.2.

A friend also recommended this to me as well, and I'm glad the price reasonable. Again, just lack of awareness on my part of advances in technology!

Lastly, the cooler.

I'm somewhat less concerned about the cooling issue, since you mentioned that I'm not likely to encounter thermal throttling unless the CPU and GPU are under full load. Gaming is the most burdensome thing I intend to do on this rig, and you mentioned that games don't load more than 6 to 8 cores; however, I will look into setting the limitations you recommended and perhaps upgrade to AIO in the future. I look into adding a 2nd 120 mm fan to the front of my case, as you suggested.

So first, i would test with a different PSU

The only other PSU I have currently is from my previous rig, and it doesn't have the requisite plugs/cables to power this mobo (missing a 2nd CPU plug), so I can't test with it. I can try a different PSU when I exchange my current one in a day or two. In the mean time, I performed the paperclip test on the current PSU and it passed. I then performed a series of boot tests with CPU, CPU fan, and RAM connected and using each of the two display ports on the mobo I/O (one HDMI, one DP). Images are below:

https://ibb.co/8nChNxq - both RAM inserted, HDMI port
https://ibb.co/XyCKSRd - both RAM inserted, DP port
https://ibb.co/0ZYjQh3 - RAM "1" inserted, DP port (fan removed to easily access the correct RAM slot for a single stick)
https://ibb.co/WWj2QkV - RAM "1" inserted, HDMI port
https://ibb.co/dpXgyNN - RAM "2" (the other stick) inserted, HDMI port
https://ibb.co/RTWFdww - RAM "2" inserted, DP port

I tested with a single RAM inserted based on a response from MSI customer service on Newegg to someone's 1-star review complaining of a DOA mobo (in that case, a Z790-A: https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E168131...edRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False#IsFeedbackTab). Anyway, no luck with any of configurations, as you can see. I can try again with the be quiet PSU when it arrives, but I'm not convinced the results would be any different at this point and I think I'll move forward trying to get a refund to replace this mobo with the A MAX.

 

[citay]

Is there a significant difference between the A Max and A aside from Wifi 6 vs 7? The cost difference is trivial so I'd lean Max anyway.

No, just like you said, the MAX brings a WiFi 7 module (which drivers only work under Win11, not Win10 anymore, but Win11 is preferred nowadays anyway).

In the mean time, I performed the paperclip test on the current PSU and it passed.

Better than nothing, but it's a no-load test and thus not extremely insightful for troubleshooting.

I can try again with the be quiet PSU when it arrives, but I'm not convinced the results would be any different at this point and I think I'll move forward trying to get a refund to replace this mobo with the A MAX.

Yeah, it could be a problem of the board. Again, i lament the lack of EZ Debug LEDs (and Flash BIOS Button), MSI are shooting themselves in the foot there, it makes it much harder to troubleshoot and solve problems, and they end up getting a board RMA. All this just to be able to offer a board another 10 EUR/USD below the Z790-P WIFI. I don't know if buyers nowadays are really that price-sensitive that MSI feel they had to release this sorry excuse for a motherboard that the PRO Z790-S is, just to hit that low price point, but it wasn't a good move.

 

[fmesa870157202e0]

Yeah, it could be a problem of the board. Again, i lament the lack of EZ Debug LEDs (and Flash BIOS Button), MSI are shooting themselves in the foot there, it makes it much harder to troubleshoot and solve problems, and they end up getting a board RMA. All this just to be able to offer a board another 10 EUR/USD below the Z790-P WIFI. I don't know if buyers nowadays are really that price-sensitive that MSI feel they had to release this sorry excuse for a motherboard that the PRO Z790-S is, just to hit that low price point, but it wasn't a good move.

A coincidence...? Looks like MSI has really stepped in it - https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...d-z790-chipsets-begins-replacing-faulty-units. I think I'm going with a Gigabyte board this time around - GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS ELITE X WIFI7.

Again, thank you for all you've shared. I've learned a ton from your responses, I almost feel like I should be receiving a consultation bill from you haha!

 

[SmokeyGrayPoupon]

Finally, an answer. Interesting what caused the sudden rash of MSI z790 Tomahawk DDR5 WIFI MBs that were DOA. I have the same MB (which I have enjoyed very much) that fortunately was not affected. How were these not detected before leaving the factory???

 

[citay]

A coincidence...? Looks like MSI has really stepped in it - https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...d-z790-chipsets-begins-replacing-faulty-units.

The DOA boards behaved differently, they were completely dead. Only the Flash BIOS Button made it show any kind of reaction (because it's independent from anything else). But with a normal press of the power button, no sign of life at all, PSU and fans/RGB don't come on. Not like this:

Although all fans run and RGB on my RAM and GPU light up, it would not get to POST.

So we don't have this DOA board phenomenon here. The board may have a problem, but it's not the same one as on the truly DOA boards.

It's also a mistake from THG to link to this thread in that other article ("discussion post" link), where it's clearly not about a DOA board, but about bent socket pins.
They should've linked a thread like this: https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?threads/mag-z790-tomahawk-wont-power-on.389589/

 

[fmesa870157202e0]

So we don't have this DOA board phenomenon here. The board may have a problem, but it's not the same one as on the truly DOA boards.

Fair enough. I shared it mostly out of amusement that it was published at same time I’ve been dealing with my MSI board. Probably coincidental, but it certainly doesn’t inspire confidence in the manufacturer right now. I’ve used many MSI components over the years and I’m sure I will again at some point.

 

[citay]

The positive about the handling of the DOA board cases is that MSI is admitting to it and promising to resolve it quickly. Problems can happen with every brand, it's just important that they are acknowledged and resolved unbureaucratically.

Again, thank you for all you've shared. I've learned a ton from your responses, I almost feel like I should be receiving a consultation bill from you haha!

Yeah, in the "real world", i write bills after solving PC problems, but this forum is more of a hobby when i have some free time. I do have a Paypal though
Haha nah, i will help without compensation, your thanks are enough. Always willing to share knowledge. Knowledge you don't share is dead knowledge.