MSI Z60 PRO A DDR4 & I7 12700KF - 100c immediate HIGH TEMPS on multicore Cinebench -> TDP SETTINGS?

[geppog152002d5]

Merry Cristamss everyone,

I just got a Cyberpower prebuild and I'm happy with it.
The only problems I had was a spike to 100c as soon (2 sec) as I ran Cinebench multicore and Userbench says Windows is throttling my CPO to 94%.
Fixed the spike of temperature after I found that the TDP long and short were was set to around 4160W by default (I believe it came from liquid cooler setting).

I'm now testing with lower wattage and it's working ok at 190w (no more immediate spikes to 100c) .
I would really appreciate your input and the setting you found to make it work at its best.

Any suggestions, guidelines will be very appreciated
Thank you again e buon natale.

Geppo

 

[geppog152002d5]

ohh..I stilll cannot figure out how to resolve the Userbench warning about Windows 11 throttling CPU power to 94%.

 

[AmurgEtern]

What cooler do you have?

 

[Gatorism]

You can change back the power setting.

What you're really going to want to do is change the CPU Voltage mode to Adaptive + Offset

Right now I have my P core CPU Ratio set to 49, my E Core Ratio set to 40, and my cpu voltage offset set to - and 0.1

Lemme see if I can snap a picture real fast to show you what it looks like. You may have to tweak those numbers as they change per cpu.

 

[Gatorism]

Your Mileage may vary. I couldn't find a ton of information on the 12700k so I just decided to wing it and so far it's been stable for me. For example, at all stock settings it was getting to 95+ on multiple cores (I'm using an NH-D15 CHROMAX Noctua cooler) while running cinebench R23. Now I'm getting maybe one core poking above 92 degrees and much better performance overall.

This probably goes without saying, but I don't take any responsibility for your hardware You'll probably have to play with the numbers to make sure everything is stable and happy but from what I can tell, this CPU has some wiggle room.

 

[citay]

You need a really good cooler for the 12700K(F), also, the cooler needs to use the LGA1700-specific mounting hardware. A cheap cooler can definitely have its problems with such a CPU, also if the airflow through the case is not enough and/or not well thought-out, you can run into problems. So with these kind of temperatures, i would say someone didn't do a good job when designing this PC. Personally i would not accept this. A PC has to be able to run at full multithreaded load without overheating and the CPU starting to throttle to save itself.

I also wouldn't mess too much with the settings. Why should you make up for their failure to design the compents adequately for this CPU? Complain to the shop about it and see what they say.

 

[Gatorism]

You need a really good cooler for the 12700K(F), also, the cooler needs to use the LGA1700-specific mounting hardware. A cheap cooler can definitely have its problems with such a CPU, also if the airflow through the case is not enough and/or not well thought-out, you can run into problems. So with these kind of temperatures, i would say someone didn't do a good job when designing this PC. Personally i would not accept this. A PC has to be able to run at full multithreaded load without overheating and the CPU starting to throttle to save itself.

I also wouldn't mess too much with the settings. Why should you make up for their failure to design the compents adequately for this CPU? Complain to the shop about it and see what they say.

To be fair, I built my own and used Noctua's LGA1700 bracket and I was still getting bad temps at stock settings in cinebench. It was immediately remedied by undervolting the CPU a bit. I found the same with my previous ASUS X470 board, stock voltages were just so damn high. It's almost as if they find what works, then add 150 mV to be safe and make sure the CPU will have proper power no matter how their power delivery is performing. I could be completely off base though, I haven't done any stability testing other than gaming on it.

 

[geppog152002d5]

Thank you all.

This is the cooler I have:
CyberPowerPC MasterLiquid Lite 120mm ARGB CPU Liquid Cooler with Dual Chamber Pump & Copper Cold Plate.
They have intalled another dc fan opposite to the included tone o make it a cheap 120mmm doublle fan (push and pull)

I know it will not be enough for sustained loads but for now I only need a basic setup guidline,. I have cleaned and applied a thicker silicon paste to the pcu and it got much better.
What should be the default bios values for this board and pcu?

ill try the voltage settings in the photos above and let you know how it goes.

Anybody has windows throttling at 94% their cpu in userbenchamark notes?

 

[Gatorism]

I wanted to come back and say that I'm sorry, turns out I'm kind of stupid

I had my back case fan turned as an intake fan when I had a watercooling loop on my X470 board, but I forgot to switch it to exhaust when I redid my cooling setup for the 12700k. Basically I was forcing the hot air back through the cooler the whole time, so my statements are pretty much invalid until I can do more thermal testing at stock. I still think this chip can be undervolted without issue, but it may not be as necessary as my previous post seemed to indicate.

My B

 

[andrew.douglas.johnsto154402d8]

Hey geppog152002d5,

I am pretty sure we have the same CyberPowerPC (see BOM). I am very new to gaming rigs and am getting the same result in Cinebench R23, before the 1st pass is done I have 3 cores hitting 100 and out of all cores there are only 4 that are below 90 C. I didn't even let the test run for more than a minute after hitting 100 C so quickly.

I am trying to trouble shoot the heat problem and had to take off the tempered glass front panel of the case which has helped a lot. I also bought a static pressure fan and mounted it on top of the case near the back as there isn't much room to squeeze a fan inside the case but even with the extra exhaust I'm still seeing temps reach 100 C while gaming or under load.

I contacted tech support and they told me to swap the direction of the front fans from intake to exhaust - they didn't even comment on the fact I had to remove the entire front panel of the case that was clearly choking air flow. My ambient is typically between 22 C - 27 C at the most given the winter season.

Been trying to read/determine what to do and based on my understanding I have the following paths forward,
- Reduce the TDP power settings
- Confirm seating of cooling system potentially reapply thermal paste (not wanting to get this deep at all)

Wanted to follow up on this thread and see where you got to as some time has passed since you first posted the problem - great comments from other contributes on this thread too!

Any help or info would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

[citay]

I seems that CyberPowerPC don't know how to build a properly cooled PC sometimes. See here for example,

Quote: "CyberPower PC's GMA-4600-BST is one of the worst pre-builts we've worked with in the last few years and thermal throttles its Ryzen CPU like crazy."

It's basically the same problem: No proper airflow through the largely closed front, as well as inadequate CPU cooling.

Now, why would you then artificially castrate your 12700KF by setting low power limits and bringing it down to the level of a much cheaper CPU? That's unacceptable.

That CPU cooler they used, MasterLiquid Lite 120 AIO, has a 120mm radiator with one 120mm fan. No wonder it has problems with a 12700KF, that CPU draws 222W as per your Package Power sensor (by the way, get HWinfo64 for sensor monitoring, it has all the proper sensor names and shows more stuff too). You need a 240mm radiator or maybe even a 360mm one, with two or three 120mm fans respectively. Then you have adequate CPU cooling. This CPU will only give you the performance you expect from it when it doesn't have to throttle to save itself.

Either install a better cooler yourself (you can use an air cooler too, but it has to be good enough for this kind of power draw, like a "be quiet! Dark Rock 4") and think about a solution for that glass front or maybe get a different case with a mesh front, all on your own dime i suppose, or have CyberPowerPC fix it without losing any performance that you paid for.
If they can't do so, think about returning the whole thing.

 

[andrew.douglas.johnsto154402d8]

Thanks for the prompt reply! Currently on hold trying to speak with a human in customer support...could be a while.

I was looking directly on the intel site and I was seeing 125W for base power 190W for turbo, if I am seeing 220W does this not indicate that I have to reduce the power?

Intel® Core™ i7-12700KF Processor (25M Cache, up to 5.00 GHz) - Product Specifications | Intel

Intel® Core™ i7-12700KF Processor (25M Cache, up to 5.00 GHz) quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.

ark.intel.com

 

[citay]

With Alder Lake 12th gen CPUs, they have done away with the old TDP rating. Now you have a, quote, "Processor Base Power", a vague "typical" power draw value at an undisclosed Intel workload that's definitely "optimized" to return the desired 125 W value. The i9-12900K, i7-12700K and i5-12600K all run at the same 125 W value in this special workload despite their completely different performance characteristics. "Maximum Turbo Power" is the real limit, the maximum amount of power the processor can draw at stock settings for an indefinite duration of time.

This MTP value is not decreased anymore after a certain amount of time, like it was with the older CPU generations via the PL1/PL2 power limits. Instead, both power limits are set to the MTP. In your case, the MTP is 190W. Now, it's entirely possible that the BIOS (by "Water Cooler" being selected in the settings) removes even this 190W limit, and you end up arriving at 222W with the power limits maxed out. That would be this setting right here:

Only by selecting "Boxed Cooler" there would you get the 190W power limit that Intel denotes. Here you see 241W which is the MTP of the 12900K (imagine that in your PC).

So this is one thing that you can actually do, enter the BIOS and select boxed cooler there, it will enforce at least the 190W and you shouldn't lose much performance, if any. But to be honest, at the same time, the CPU also won't stay that much cooler. You have to check if you can keep the CPU from throttling by doing that (meaning, from reducing frequencies to save itself from overheating).

Any type of throttling or even well over 90°C CPU temps at 190W power limit and you know the cooling still isn't adequate. Then you can either manually lower the power limits further, and i can tell you how to do that, and lose some performance. Which is most likely what CyberPowerPC will advise you to do in the end, because short of giving you a more powerful CPU cooling solution or a more airflow-oriented case, they can't do much else. But it's up to you if you accept that.

For the future, i would either build my own PC and select the ideal components for each job, or buy a pre-built PC that has actually been reviewed by a reputable source to be good.

 

[andrew.douglas.johnsto154402d8]

You are 100% right I needed to do further research into CyberPowerPC as a prebuilt provider, this is totally on me and I've watched the video you linked but sadly I watched on my CyberPowerPC! I spent more time learning about the components and recent advancements.

Again thank you for all your help! I am in BIOS, however, when I do what you have suggested my PL1 power for BoxedCooler actually shows 241W not 190W?

 

[citay]

That's odd. Can you make a real screenshot of that page, by pressing F12 in the BIOS and saving the image to a FAT32 USB drive? You might have to convert the picture to PNG or JPG afterwards to reduce the file size. I want to see some more information there that is cut off on your photo.

 

[andrew.douglas.johnsto154402d8]

I took a couple and expanded one of the menus in the over clocking section - if there is anything else I can share in there that would be helpful please let me know! : )

 

[citay]

Thanks. Ok, first of all you should update the BIOS to the newer release, you're still on the (known buggy) v100.

Update how-to:
1) Get the latest BIOS. It's the topmost one on the MSI support page for your board. https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-Z690-A-DDR4/support#support-main-block-download
2) Extract the file and you will get a text file and the BIOS file. Put the BIOS file into the root folder of a USB stick/drive.
3) Enter the BIOS by pressing DEL during boot, go to "M-FLASH" in the BIOS.
4) Once M-Flash (the updater) is loaded, it will show a list of your drives. Select the USB stick and select the previously extracted BIOS file on there.
5) It will ask for confirmation and then update the BIOS. It's fully automatic from there, takes about two minutes.

After the update, it will probably show you the cooler selection screen (sort of like a blown-up version of the setting where you select boxed, tower or water cooler). Select Boxed there and see if it's now on the correct 190W power limits. If not, we're gonna set that manually, but first do the BIOS update, the 241W for 12700KF might be another BIOS bug.

Also, you can go to "Advanced CPU" after the update and set "C1E Support" to Enabled, and "Enhanced Turbo" to Disabled.

 

[andrew.douglas.johnsto154402d8]

I've updated to the latest BIOS and am back into the BIOS mode, however, there has been no change to the power settings. I did see a prompt quickly that said CPU or Memory has been changed just before I got back into BIOS. Before all of this I enabled the XMP profile for my ram as it was set to 2400 MHz not 3200 MHz.

 

[citay]

Yeah, i was gonna say, enable XMP again to get your RAM frequency up. The fan curves are also reset, but the cooling is/was bad anyway, so there's no loss there.
You can read the Guide: How to set up a fan curve in the BIOS on how to set that up well yourself.

Ok, so the board doesn't adhere to the 190W, you have to set it yourself. Go to "Advanced CPU Configuration" and set "C1E Support" to Enabled, and "Enhanced Turbo" to Disabled.
Then set Long Duration and Short Duration Power Limit both to 190W instead of Auto. This will override the CPU cooler selection. Press F10 to save and reboot and see if you can still get the CPU to draw more than 190W. Package Power should not go above anymore (at least not by much). Use HWinfo64 to monitor as it's superior.

 

[andrew.douglas.johnsto154402d8]

I ran Cinebench R23 for about 4minutes and it was substantially better after all your advised changes. It still did experience thermal throttling after a few passes, however, the temps didn't immediately bounce off 100C as they did before and the power didn't creep past 190W for the CPU.

Thank you so much for your help with all of this. This has been so helpful and appreciated!!!!

So from this point if I want to further reduce the temps I will need to further reduce those power settings down from 190W, however, I am going to get a drop in performance as you've said. This has validated my poor cooling solution from CyberPowerPC so I can try and fight with them to rectify the situation or begin sorting out a better case/cooling solution on my own. Do you see an alternate paths forward or is that pretty much the end point?