MSI Z60 PRO A DDR4 & I7 12700KF - 100c immediate HIGH TEMPS on multicore Cinebench -> TDP SETTINGS?

geppog152002d5

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Merry Cristamss everyone,

I just got a Cyberpower prebuild and I'm happy with it.
The only problems I had was a spike to 100c as soon (2 sec) as I ran Cinebench multicore and Userbench says Windows is throttling my CPO to 94%.
Fixed the spike of temperature after I found that the TDP long and short were was set to around 4160W by default (I believe it came from liquid cooler setting).

I'm now testing with lower wattage and it's working ok at 190w (no more immediate spikes to 100c) .
I would really appreciate your input and the setting you found to make it work at its best.

Any suggestions, guidelines will be very appreciated
Thank you again e buon natale.

Geppo
 
You're welcome, i'm always glad when i can help.

Yeah, it's a little better at the 190W limit as per Intel spec, but as you said, still thermal throttling, still the cooling isn't enough.

So we have to see if we can effectively undervolt the CPU a little, or to be more exact, take off some of the additional VCore that MSI likes to add.
Under "Advanced CPU Configuration" there is setting called "CPU Lite Load". This can be the moneymaker for lower power draw and temperatures, depending on your individual CPU.
You can select a lower "CPU Lite Load" setting than the default, to use a lower frequency-vs.-voltage mapping for the CPU VCore. But it requires stability testing.

CPU Lite Load is basically the "silicon quality" setting, they are testing hundreds of CPUs for the variance in quality, i.e. how high of a VCore is required for stability, and then they put in a default value like 8, 12, or higher, to be able to run 99.9% of the CPUs of varying VCore requirements. If you lower the setting, you are fine-tuning it down, to be more exact to your specific CPU. But you must ensure that it is Linpack-stable.

Linpack Xtreme: https://www.techpowerup.com/download/linpack-xtreme/
Run Linpack, select 2 (Stress test), 5 (10 GB), set 10 times, press Y to use all threads, and let it do its thing.
It's a great tool to detect instability. It has to always say PASS after each run.
Usually i would warn you of the amount of heat this test can produce with an unrestricted CPU, but we already limited it to 190W maximum, so you won't get more heat than in Cinebench.

CPU Lite Load Mode 1 applies the lowest voltage, which can be unstable. Your default value is mode 9, that's not specific to your CPU, that's the default value to be able to run the worst silicon (highest VCore required in testing) without stability issues. But a lot of CPUs have better quality and you can go lower, decreasing power draw. Stability must be verified. For my old 9600KF, it was unstable at CPU Lite Load 3, while 4 was stable. Then for additoonal headroom, i went to Mode 5. Rock stable and considerably less power draw than the default. So, work your way down until you hit a setting that is unstable, then test the next highest mode, and if that's stable, then go one mode higher for headroom. Reason: When it's hot in the summer, the CPU can be more prone to errors, so set it one mode higher than the lowest stable one to have some headroom for more extreme circumstances.

MSI_SnapShot_13 Advanced CPU.png



As you can see there on the picture, in my system right now, i set "CPU Lite Load" to Mode 1 for my 11500. So, no added VCore in any load situation, which is stable for me (good quality CPU).
But each CPU has its own lowest mode where it is still stable. Only if your CPU is stable all the way down in Mode 1, like my i5-11500, you can keep it on Mode 1. If not, go with the stable +1 headroom.
 
Great! I will for sure give this a try. I was finally able to get in touch with CyberPowerPC and they basically said I can RMA it for service and they would expect my build to be within 80-85C on the Cinebench R23 test. I asked if they would change the case or cooling and they said no additional parts/upgrades would be included in the "service".

I don't mind getting into the details but at some point it's just not what I paid for - the whole reason I went pre-built is cause I was interested in using it not spending my time building and tinkering, that is out the window!

I'll try these winding this down as you've suggested and see what the impact is!
 
Great! I will for sure give this a try. I was finally able to get in touch with CyberPowerPC and they basically said I can RMA it for service and they would expect my build to be within 80-85C on the Cinebench R23 test. I asked if they would change the case or cooling and they said no additional parts/upgrades would be included in the "service".

I don't mind getting into the details but at some point it's just not what I paid for - the whole reason I went pre-built is cause I was interested in using it not spending my time building and tinkering, that is out the window!

I'll try these winding this down as you've suggested and see what the impact is!
Yeah don't think the 12700 should be running that much hotter than my 12600K. I get max 72C even with Cinebench and this is with air cooler, Noctua NH-U12S Redux, not even water cooling so something definitely wrong with your build and RMA it for sure.
 
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Thank you all.

This is the cooler I have:
CyberPowerPC MasterLiquid Lite 120mm ARGB CPU Liquid Cooler with Dual Chamber Pump & Copper Cold Plate.
They have intalled another dc fan opposite to the included tone o make it a cheap 120mmm doublle fan (push and pull)

I know it will not be enough for sustained loads but for now I only need a basic setup guidline,. I have cleaned and applied a thicker silicon paste to the pcu and it got much better.
What should be the default bios values for this board and pcu?

ill try the voltage settings in the photos above and let you know how it goes.

Anybody has windows throttling at 94% their cpu in userbenchamark notes?
I get CPU throttled at 91% by Windows. Ensure maximum processor state is set to 100% via Settings > System > Power & sleep > Additional power settings > Change plan settings > Change advanced power settings > Processor power management > Maximum processor state.
Pretty sure they need to update their app for Alder Lake because it's definitely not throttling according to HWinfo and Intel XTU the programs I use that will tell you accurately. I trust HWinfo and Intel lot more than some website that doesn't even mention last time their benchmark program was updated for new cpus.
 
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Hey N Y C, I went through your suggested testing and settled on Mode 3 for the CPU Lite Load, I even unplugged the extra fan I put on top of the case and put the restrictive front panel back in place temporarily for the lower mode tests. All the tests passed on Mode 3 and I saw a significant drop in CPU temperatures, can’t thank you enough!!! I am more than grateful to not have this thing cooking itself to death.

I was curious about how disabling the Enhanced Turbo and reducing the Mode can impact overall performance? Obviously not cooking is priority number one, however, you mentioned your CPU Lite Load is set to Mode 1 and you come across as someone who would be protecting a reasonable level of performance.

Also, just so I am clear on the logic of these parameters and can absorb all the great info your teaching me - the main factor we are watching out for is thermal throttling? After learning all of this I am certain the CPU has been getting throttled in the 95 - 100 range for the first 2 weeks of use, hopefully I didn’t do any permanent damage over that time period. That being said, if I target settings that keep my CPU temp between 80 - 85 under the most extreme testing like Cinebench R23 or LinpackXtreme without any thermal throttling I should be good? There were a few instances where the CPU would run into the low 90’s but not thermal throttle and I am curious if that is acceptable for longevity of the rig?



For example, after settling on Mode 3 and getting good temps in LinpackXtreme I ran Cinebench R23 again on multi-core, score was 22745 pts. The temperatures reached up to 96 C after maybe the 5th pass which I think is still no good. It didn’t thermal throttle but was red in the HWinfo. I pulled the front panel back for the remainder of the test and the max single core temp I saw was more like 92, all the cores were in the 80 to 92 range for the remainder of the test.

Testing Summary:
Tried Mode 8 - Was passing tests but thermal throttling so I aborted after the 3rd pass

Tried Mode 5 - Passed all 10 tests with zero thermal throttle, each pass was about ~105sec and my extra fan was running at 75% or higher due to temps being in the 70’s while under load and my fan curve

Tried Mode 3 - Turned off PWM for extra top fan and set to lowest rated RPM of 800 or ~22% power, P-Cores running around 4.7MHz/E-Cores at 3.6MHz, max power draw at 160W, max single core temp of 85C across all tests, all tests passed!

Tried Mode 1 - Removed extra fan entirely (unplugged from motherboard), placed front panel back on case (restricts air flow), crashed on first pass with blue screen and fault code “CLOCK_WATCHDOG_TIMEOUT”

Tried Mode 2 - With extra fan unplugged and front panel on case. Passed all tests with max single core temp of 68C and max power draw of 104W. Time to complete each pass was the slowest of all tests at 162sec/pass

Set Mode 3 and ran Cinebench R23 again. Scored 22745 on the multi-core test and saw a max temp of 96C, pulled the front panel off to give more air to the intake fans. temps were typically in the 80's to low 90's max for remainder of test.
 

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Yeah don't think the 12700 should be running that much hotter than my 12600K. I get max 72C even with Cinebench and this is with air cooler not even water cooling so something definitely wrong with your build and RMA it for sure.
Was feeling hopeful after all the progress made with LinpackXtreme testing and reducing the CPU Lite Load setting but the Cinebench test still ran the CPU temps right up into the high 80's low 90's. I have the RMA sitting in my inbox I just really would like to avoid it if I can - I was leaning more towards returning for refund rather than sending it in for service if I have to go that route. Maybe I got hosed but felt like $3200 was a decent price for the specs assuming no thermal issues of course.
 
Was feeling hopeful after all the progress made with LinpackXtreme testing and reducing the CPU Lite Load setting but the Cinebench test still ran the CPU temps right up into the high 80's low 90's. I have the RMA sitting in my inbox I just really would like to avoid it if I can - I was leaning more towards returning for refund rather than sending it in for service if I have to go that route. Maybe I got hosed but felt like $3200 was a decent price for the specs assuming no thermal issues of course.
Kinda weird that Cinebench but not Linpack caused your CPU to throttle since IME Linpack usually puts more stress on your system maxing out RAM+CPU whereas Cinebench is mostly CPU.
Anyways, like I said your CPU is running way too hot especially with water cooling so somethings not right. Maybe CPU not mounted correct lots of complaints online about the new 1700 socket causing motherboards to bend and not mount flush because of it, this would cause higher temps than normal. Anyways, that goes back to whoever put your PC together. If you not doing some crazy overclocking running way too hot IMO.
 
Ok, that looks promising.

I was curious about how disabling the Enhanced Turbo and reducing the Mode can impact overall performance? Obviously not cooking is priority number one, however, you mentioned your CPU Lite Load is set to Mode 1 and you come across as someone who would be protecting a reasonable level of performance.

Yes, the idea is to keep the performance similar to identical.

"Enhanced Turbo" is a mainboard function which actually equates to overclocking. It's mostly a way for the boards of one brand to perform better than the boards of competing brands in reviews. Because if all other components are comparable, the boards would all have roughly the same benchmarks results, as the board itself has very little say on the overall performance. It's mostly down to the CPU, RAM and GPU. But obviously there can be a huge impact on performance once the BIOS settings are changed from the accepted norm or Intel standard. You see this to a degree with the MTP, which is not accurately applied by MSI to 190W, instead they choose 241W, as if your CPU was a 12900K. I can only call this a deliberate choice, because it also happens in the second BIOS release.

Now, "Enhanced Turbo" would be going way above a simple power limit increase. What this does is, it allows the highest turbo multiplicator for single-core load to be active no matter how many cores are fully loaded. Usually, the more cores are loaded, the less high the CPU is allowed to clock, in order to keep power consumption and heat production in check. But not so with this function. So when you have a rather high-end CPU like yours, this can wreak havoc. I hope it's not enabled when it's on Auto, but it's better to set it to disabled manually. Other brands also have this "dirty trick" up their sleeve, on ASUS it's called "MultiCore Enhancement", you can read more about it here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/6214/multicore-enhancement-the-debate-about-free-mhz


the main factor we are watching out for is thermal throttling? After learning all of this I am certain the CPU has been getting throttled in the 95 - 100 range for the first 2 weeks of use, hopefully I didn’t do any permanent damage over that time period. That being said, if I target settings that keep my CPU temp between 80 - 85 under the most extreme testing like Cinebench R23 or LinpackXtreme without any thermal throttling I should be good? There were a few instances where the CPU would run into the low 90’s but not thermal throttle and I am curious if that is acceptable for longevity of the rig?



Yes, thermal throttling has to be avoided like the plague. This is what will kill your CPU performance. Linpack Xtreme, and even Cinebench R23, are not the kind of loads you will normally have in daily use, unless you are 3D rendering or something. They are the extreme end of the kind of load you will see. So if you can keep it at around 90°C or below on these most extreme loads, it's somewhat acceptable. Of course, the CPU cooling can't be called good, but usually you won't see this kind of load/temps (for example in gaming), so it's not a total dealbreaker.

As for the longevity, don't worry, this CPU will keep working until it's outdated. Other things will give up earlier. First tends to be the PSU, i give yours 4-8 years (if you use the PC regularly) before it will develop or cause a problem. It's not a particularly good unit, it's a noname "Apevia" so they may have used cheap components. See here and here for some further reading material on PSUs.

Of interest for longevity are also some other temperatures, for which you need to run HWinfo64 Sensors with all sensors expanded (click on the little <--> arrows on the bottom). First let it run a while in idle, so the "minimum" baselines for the values are established. Then produce full CPU load with Cinebench R23. After the CPU temperatures have stabilized at the highest level, take a screenshot. This will show everything at once.


For example, after settling on Mode 3 and getting good temps in LinpackXtreme I ran Cinebench R23 again on multi-core, score was 22745 pts. The temperatures reached up to 96 C after maybe the 5th pass which I think is still no good. It didn’t thermal throttle but was red in the HWinfo. I pulled the front panel back for the remainder of the test and the max single core temp I saw was more like 92, all the cores were in the 80 to 92 range for the remainder of the test.

The score should stay pretty similar to Mode 9. A couple dozen points less is not such a big deal, it would only amount to 1% difference tops. You just don't want to see 4000 points less or so.

About the temps, you have to keep in mind, this is prolonged full load at a level which you don't normally have, unless you encode/render etc. for long periods of time. As i said, in games for example, the power consumption of the CPU will be much less than this. And it better be, because then the graphics card is also heating up the air inside the case more. So yeah, if you can live with the front panel being off, that would be good for the cooling no matter what.

Having a relatively closed front has gone out of fashion a bit with more experienced builders. Mesh fronts have become more popular. There has been a realization that in order to lower the noise level, you might as well use a case with great airflow and thus be able to reduce the fan speeds, instead of using a "noise-insulating" case that on the other hand necessitates higher fan speeds.
I wrote about the case differences here recently, https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?threads/loud-pc-post-build.370357/


Yeah don't think the 12700 should be running that much hotter than my 12600K. I get max 72C even with Cinebench and this is with air cooler, Noctua NH-U12S Redux, not even water cooling so something definitely wrong with your build and RMA it for sure.

No, the 12700K has two more performance cores and clocks higher with higher VCore, it will draw 50-60W more than your 12600K. If we go by the MTP numbers, your is 150W and the 12700K is 190W, but we already know the boards don't adhere to that, so looking at some reviews, you're looking at 25-30% more power consumption (and thus heat) for the 12700K.

The explanation of his temperature problems are also quite simple. The 120mm AIO is not adequate for this CPU, it would be more suited for the 12600K and below. The suboptimal case design compounds the issue. This is not a problem of his particular individual PC, it's a design/conception flaw of this system by CyberPowerPC, as they have done in the past as well (see the Youtube video).

There are exactly two choices: 1) Optimize the system yourself as best you can, which (short of a CPU cooler swap or more) we have done by now, and accept what you get by that, or 2) don't accept it and RMA the whole thing, with some strong comments for them to think about on how it needs better cooling.

Because:

I asked if they would change the case or cooling and they said no additional parts/upgrades would be included in the "service".

It is clear to me that they would just enter the BIOS and restrict the CPU by setting lower power limits until their cooling becomes adequate, at the cost of performance. They are not interested in supplying people with a better CPU cooler on their dime, because first of all that would mean that they admit to the cooling being inadequate, as well as set a precedent that would enable other buyers of such system to demand the same.
 
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Anyways here is the cooling issues around the new LGA-1700 socket used by latest Intel CPU's I mentioned but doubt it applies in this case since only like a 5 degree C difference it seems.

 
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Ok, that looks promising.



Yes, the idea is to keep the performance similar to identical.

"Enhanced Turbo" is a mainboard function which actually equates to overclocking. It's mostly a way for the boards of one brand to perform better than the boards of competing brands in reviews. Because if all other components are comparable, the boards would all have roughly the same benchmarks results, as the board itself has very little say on the overall performance. It's mostly down to the CPU, RAM and GPU. But obviously there can be a huge impact on performance once the BIOS settings are changed from the accepted norm or Intel standard. You see this to a degree with the MTP, which is not accurately applied by MSI to 190W, instead they choose 241W, as if your CPU was a 12900K. I can only call this a deliberate choice, because it also happens in the second BIOS release.

Now, "Enhanced Turbo" would be going way above a simple power limit increase. What this does is, it allows the highest turbo multiplicator for single-core load to be active no matter how many cores are fully loaded. Usually, the more cores are loaded, the less high the CPU is allowed to clock, in order to keep power consumption and heat production in check. But not so with this function. So when you have a rather high-end CPU like yours, this can wreak havoc. I hope it's not enabled when it's on Auto, but it's better to set it to disabled manually. Other brands also have this "dirty trick" up their sleeve, on ASUS it's called "MultiCore Enhancement", you can read more about it here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/6214/multicore-enhancement-the-debate-about-free-mhz




Yes, thermal throttling has to be avoided like the plague. This is what will kill your CPU performance. Linpack Xtreme, and even Cinebench R23, are not the kind of loads you will normally have in daily use, unless you are 3D rendering or something. They are the extreme end of the kind of load you will see. So if you can keep it at around 90°C or below on these most extreme loads, it's somewhat acceptable. Of course, the CPU cooling can't be called good, but usually you won't see this kind of load/temps (for example in gaming), so it's not a total dealbreaker.

As for the longevity, don't worry, this CPU will keep working until it's outdated. Other things will give up earlier. First tends to be the PSU, i give yours 4-8 years (if you use the PC regularly) before it will develop or cause a problem. It's not a particularly good unit, it's a noname "Apevia" so they may have used cheap components. See here and here for some further reading material on PSUs.

Of interest for longevity are also some other temperatures, for which you need to run HWinfo64 Sensors with all sensors expanded (click on the little <--> arrows on the bottom). First let it run a while in idle, so the "minimum" baselines for the values are established. Then produce full CPU load with Cinebench R23. After the CPU temperatures have stabilized at the highest level, take a screenshot. This will show everything at once.




The score should stay pretty similar to Mode 9. A couple dozen points less is not such a big deal, it would only amount to 1% difference tops. You just don't want to see 4000 points less or so.

About the temps, you have to keep in mind, this is prolonged full load at a level which you don't normally have, unless you encode/render etc. for long periods of time. As i said, in games for example, the power consumption of the CPU will be much less than this. And it better be, because then the graphics card is also heating up the air inside the case more. So yeah, if you can live with the front panel being off, that would be good for the cooling no matter what.

Having a relatively closed front has gone out of fashion a bit with more experienced builders. Mesh fronts have become more popular. There has been a realization that in order to lower the noise level, you might as well use a case with great airflow and thus be able to reduce the fan speeds, instead of using a "noise-insulating" case that on the other hand necessitates higher fan speeds.
I wrote about the case differences here recently, https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?threads/loud-pc-post-build.370357/




No, the 12700K has two more performance cores and clocks higher with higher VCore, it will draw 50-60W more than your 12600K. If we go by the MTP numbers, your is 150W and the 12700K is 190W, but we already know the boards don't adhere to that, so looking at some reviews, you're looking at 25-30% more power consumption (and thus heat) for the 12700K.

The explanation of his temperature problems are also quite simple. The 120mm AIO is not adequate for this CPU, it would be more suited for the 12600K and below. The suboptimal case design compounds the issue. This is not a problem of his particular individual PC, it's a design/conception flaw of this system by CyberPowerPC, as they have done in the past as well (see the Youtube video).

There are exactly two choices: 1) Optimize the system yourself as best you can, which (short of a CPU cooler swap or more) we have done by now, and accept what you get by that, or 2) don't accept it and RMA the whole thing, with some strong comments for them to think about on how it needs better cooling.

Because:



It is clear to me that they would just enter the BIOS and restrict the CPU by setting lower power limits until their cooling becomes adequate, at the cost of performance. They are not interested in supplying people with a better CPU cooler on their dime, because first of all that would mean that they admit to the cooling being inadequate, as well as set a precedent that would enable other buyers of such system to demand the same.

Going to try my most taxing/intended use case tonight for a few hours after the tweaking and see how it goes. If I can use it as I intended to with the temps staying below 85 I'll probably just keep it. If I get into more taxing applications I'll have to improve the cooling on my own. I looked into building a comparable rig and it's more expensive than what I paid and I guess I could get an older CPU or downgrade the GPU but not really liking that idea if I can make this work.

Thanks again for your help! I'll let you know how the beta test goes!
 
Anyways here is the cooling issues around the new LGA-1700 socket used by latest Intel CPU's I mentioned but doubt it applies in this case since only like a 5 degree C difference it seems.

Thanks for sharing, I'll be sure to give these a read! Defiantly relevant for my build :)
 
Hey geppog152002d5,

I am pretty sure we have the same CyberPowerPC (see BOM). I am very new to gaming rigs and am getting the same result in Cinebench R23, before the 1st pass is done I have 3 cores hitting 100 and out of all cores there are only 4 that are below 90 C. I didn't even let the test run for more than a minute after hitting 100 C so quickly.

I am trying to trouble shoot the heat problem and had to take off the tempered glass front panel of the case which has helped a lot. I also bought a static pressure fan and mounted it on top of the case near the back as there isn't much room to squeeze a fan inside the case but even with the extra exhaust I'm still seeing temps reach 100 C while gaming or under load.

I contacted tech support and they told me to swap the direction of the front fans from intake to exhaust - they didn't even comment on the fact I had to remove the entire front panel of the case that was clearly choking air flow. My ambient is typically between 22 C - 27 C at the most given the winter season.

Been trying to read/determine what to do and based on my understanding I have the following paths forward,
- Reduce the TDP power settings
- Confirm seating of cooling system potentially reapply thermal paste (not wanting to get this deep at all)

Wanted to follow up on this thread and see where you got to as some time has passed since you first posted the problem - great comments from other contributes on this thread too!

Any help or info would be greatly appreciated!!!

Hi, at the end I have settled with:
1-repaste the cpu with thetmalright TFX compaunf 14.3 w/mk from amazon
2- replace inner cpu cooler fan with high pressure noctua.
3-update MB bios and lest everything to default except xp1

now cinebench multicore takes more than a minute to reach 100c but I found taht the heaviest games ran at full never make cpu go over 70c so im happy with it.
good luck
 
Hi, at the end I have settled with:
1-repaste the cpu with thetmalright TFX compaunf 14.3 w/mk from amazon
2- replace inner cpu cooler fan with high pressure noctua.
3-update MB bios and lest everything to default except xp1

now cinebench multicore takes more than a minute to reach 100c but I found taht the heaviest games ran at full never make cpu go over 70c so im happy with it.
good luck
..
by the way i'm very happy with the components i found in my CYBERPOWER PC. all super good quality and a geood userbenchmark score of global 88%percentile compared to overs with similar components.
 
now cinebench multicore takes more than a minute to reach 100c but I found taht the heaviest games ran at full never make cpu go over 70c so im happy with it.

So CPU cooling is still inadequate for true full CPU load. With different load, you have different power consumption, even though it would all be shown as full load in the task manager.
Let me quote something here:

doQfNIZ.jpg


Although these tests range from 70% to 130% TDP workload, Windows Task Manager interprets every test as 100% CPU Utilization, which is processor resource activity, not actual %TDP workload.
Core temperatures respond directly to Power consumption (Watts), which is driven by workload.

That graph shows a bunch of popular stress tests, but even rendering like in Cinebench is loading the CPU to the fullest, as you can see there, while games would be more at the 50-75% TDP range (even though Intel has done away with TDP, so let's call it MTP for 12th gen).

In games, the graphics card is far more loaded than the CPU, so the CPU will draw much less power than its MTP (maximum turbo power). However, with more demanding load like encoding, rendering etc. - in short, any real full multi-core CPU load - the CPU will draw much more power closer to its MTP, which overwhelms your CPU cooling, and the CPU enters thermal throttling to save itself.

The simple fact of the matter is, the CPU cooler that CyberPowerPC chose here is undersized for this CPU's MTP. You need a radiator twice that size, with two 120mm fans on it, to remove the heat when the CPU is truly under full load. This CPU cooler is suitable for up to a 12600K at the most, that's quite evident.

One thing i would also advise you to try though is the optimization of the "CPU Lite Load" setting as i wrote here. You can see how much success can be had by that, since it lowers the CPU voltage-per-frequency curve to be more specific to the quality of your individual CPU. Most CPUs can still run stable if you lower the CPU Lite Load mode. And then you have lower power draw (and thus temperatures) at the same performance.
 
Hi, at the end I have settled with:
1-repaste the cpu with thetmalright TFX compaunf 14.3 w/mk from amazon
2- replace inner cpu cooler fan with high pressure noctua.
3-update MB bios and lest everything to default except xp1

now cinebench multicore takes more than a minute to reach 100c but I found taht the heaviest games ran at full never make cpu go over 70c so im happy with it.
good luck
Thanks for getting back, I am going to take a look at my rad fans and ensure they are static pressure - can't believe they would use air flow fans for this application but if they are I won't be surprised!
 
Ok, that looks promising.



Yes, the idea is to keep the performance similar to identical.

"Enhanced Turbo" is a mainboard function which actually equates to overclocking. It's mostly a way for the boards of one brand to perform better than the boards of competing brands in reviews. Because if all other components are comparable, the boards would all have roughly the same benchmarks results, as the board itself has very little say on the overall performance. It's mostly down to the CPU, RAM and GPU. But obviously there can be a huge impact on performance once the BIOS settings are changed from the accepted norm or Intel standard. You see this to a degree with the MTP, which is not accurately applied by MSI to 190W, instead they choose 241W, as if your CPU was a 12900K. I can only call this a deliberate choice, because it also happens in the second BIOS release.

Now, "Enhanced Turbo" would be going way above a simple power limit increase. What this does is, it allows the highest turbo multiplicator for single-core load to be active no matter how many cores are fully loaded. Usually, the more cores are loaded, the less high the CPU is allowed to clock, in order to keep power consumption and heat production in check. But not so with this function. So when you have a rather high-end CPU like yours, this can wreak havoc. I hope it's not enabled when it's on Auto, but it's better to set it to disabled manually. Other brands also have this "dirty trick" up their sleeve, on ASUS it's called "MultiCore Enhancement", you can read more about it here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/6214/multicore-enhancement-the-debate-about-free-mhz




Yes, thermal throttling has to be avoided like the plague. This is what will kill your CPU performance. Linpack Xtreme, and even Cinebench R23, are not the kind of loads you will normally have in daily use, unless you are 3D rendering or something. They are the extreme end of the kind of load you will see. So if you can keep it at around 90°C or below on these most extreme loads, it's somewhat acceptable. Of course, the CPU cooling can't be called good, but usually you won't see this kind of load/temps (for example in gaming), so it's not a total dealbreaker.

As for the longevity, don't worry, this CPU will keep working until it's outdated. Other things will give up earlier. First tends to be the PSU, i give yours 4-8 years (if you use the PC regularly) before it will develop or cause a problem. It's not a particularly good unit, it's a noname "Apevia" so they may have used cheap components. See here and here for some further reading material on PSUs.

Of interest for longevity are also some other temperatures, for which you need to run HWinfo64 Sensors with all sensors expanded (click on the little <--> arrows on the bottom). First let it run a while in idle, so the "minimum" baselines for the values are established. Then produce full CPU load with Cinebench R23. After the CPU temperatures have stabilized at the highest level, take a screenshot. This will show everything at once.




The score should stay pretty similar to Mode 9. A couple dozen points less is not such a big deal, it would only amount to 1% difference tops. You just don't want to see 4000 points less or so.

About the temps, you have to keep in mind, this is prolonged full load at a level which you don't normally have, unless you encode/render etc. for long periods of time. As i said, in games for example, the power consumption of the CPU will be much less than this. And it better be, because then the graphics card is also heating up the air inside the case more. So yeah, if you can live with the front panel being off, that would be good for the cooling no matter what.

Having a relatively closed front has gone out of fashion a bit with more experienced builders. Mesh fronts have become more popular. There has been a realization that in order to lower the noise level, you might as well use a case with great airflow and thus be able to reduce the fan speeds, instead of using a "noise-insulating" case that on the other hand necessitates higher fan speeds.
I wrote about the case differences here recently, https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?threads/loud-pc-post-build.370357/




No, the 12700K has two more performance cores and clocks higher with higher VCore, it will draw 50-60W more than your 12600K. If we go by the MTP numbers, your is 150W and the 12700K is 190W, but we already know the boards don't adhere to that, so looking at some reviews, you're looking at 25-30% more power consumption (and thus heat) for the 12700K.

The explanation of his temperature problems are also quite simple. The 120mm AIO is not adequate for this CPU, it would be more suited for the 12600K and below. The suboptimal case design compounds the issue. This is not a problem of his particular individual PC, it's a design/conception flaw of this system by CyberPowerPC, as they have done in the past as well (see the Youtube video).

There are exactly two choices: 1) Optimize the system yourself as best you can, which (short of a CPU cooler swap or more) we have done by now, and accept what you get by that, or 2) don't accept it and RMA the whole thing, with some strong comments for them to think about on how it needs better cooling.

Because:



It is clear to me that they would just enter the BIOS and restrict the CPU by setting lower power limits until their cooling becomes adequate, at the cost of performance. They are not interested in supplying people with a better CPU cooler on their dime, because first of all that would mean that they admit to the cooling being inadequate, as well as set a precedent that would enable other buyers of such system to demand the same.
So I ran my little testing session last night and played my most taxing game for a good couple hours and there was only one instance for a moment where I saw the CPU get to 82, other than that it stayed between 65 - 75, not even close to thermal throttling anymore. I kept the front panel on and my extra fan turned off for this test.

I'm just going to stick with the changes you helped me make and carry on with my life lol. Will keep my extra fan on top as an oh sh*t policy to ramp up if I see high temps and will sort out some sort of permanent mesh solution to replace the tempered glass front panel and call it day. I also am going to check the radiator fans as geppog did and replace them with static pressure fans if they are air flow type.

If I end up getting a VR headset or start doing more graphics work I may have to sort out a more complete cooling solution for the CPU on my own but agree returning for service to CyberPowerPC will probably be a waste of everyone's time.

This was an extremely helpful and educational experience, thank you : )
 
So CPU cooling is still inadequate for true full CPU load. With different load, you have different power consumption, even though it would all be shown as full load in the task manager.
Let me quote something here:

doQfNIZ.jpg


Although these tests range from 70% to 130% TDP workload, Windows Task Manager interprets every test as 100% CPU Utilization, which is processor resource activity, not actual %TDP workload.
Core temperatures respond directly to Power consumption (Watts), which is driven by workload.

That graph shows a bunch of popular stress tests, but even rendering like in Cinebench is loading the CPU to the fullest, as you can see there, while games would be more at the 50-75% TDP range (even though Intel has done away with TDP, so let's call it MTP for 12th gen).

In games, the graphics card is far more loaded than the CPU, so the CPU will draw much less power than its MTP (maximum turbo power). However, with more demanding load like encoding, rendering etc. - in short, any real full multi-core CPU load - the CPU will draw much more power closer to its MTP, which overwhelms your CPU cooling, and the CPU enters thermal throttling to save itself.

The simple fact of the matter is, the CPU cooler that CyberPowerPC chose here is undersized for this CPU's MTP. You need a radiator twice that size, with two 120mm fans on it, to remove the heat when the CPU is truly under full load. This CPU cooler is suitable for up to a 12600K at the most, that's quite evident.

One thing i would also advise you to try though is the optimization of the "CPU Lite Load" setting as i wrote here. You can see how much success can be had by that, since it lowers the CPU voltage-per-frequency curve to be more specific to the quality of your individual CPU. Most CPUs can still run stable if you lower the CPU Lite Load mode. And then you have lower power draw (and thus temperatures) at the same performance.
Graph seems to agree with my own experience stability testing new PC build. Can easily see why AIDA64 would crash my rig whereas runs fine with less demanding programs.
 
Great! I will for sure give this a try. I was finally able to get in touch with CyberPowerPC and they basically said I can RMA it for service and they would expect my build to be within 80-85C on the Cinebench R23 test. I asked if they would change the case or cooling and they said no additional parts/upgrades would be included in the "service".

I'll try these winding this down as you've suggested and see what the impact is!

What is your Vcore reading under load using HWInfo, when running Cinebench multi loops? My Edge was pushing 1.30v (load) to my i9-12900K at stock settings. I ended up changing the Vcore in the BIOS and got things stable (with overclock) at 1.21v. Definitely reduced wattage as well as temps by 15-20c. This is with a Noctua air cooler.

If you have things under control and you’re in a good place, that’s what matters.
 
Yeah hard to believe improperly configured fan can cause so many issues but my PC just let my know yesterday 😩
Had it running completely stable after running all stability test then all of the sudden started failing after just setting BIOS settings to default and completely at a loss why!
Figured it out after a few reboots and testing. Apparently the cpu fan setting somehow got set to silent mode and that was enough to cause PC to become unstable. Apparently, CPU getting too hot and causing automatic reboot after reaching critical temperature!
Anyways, fixed after setting CPU fan setting in BIOS back to normal setting.
 
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