Optimal settings Z790 Tomahawk Wifi Max i9 14900k

[MigraineFilms]

Hi all, as I was filling other threads with questions, here is a dedicated thread to my question.

Can you help me getting my i9 under control, it keeps thermally throttling even under very low power settings, and I dont fully grasp the undervolt settings.

My system:
i9 14900k
MAG Z790 Tomahawk Wifi max
Deepcool LT720 AIO
Contact Frame
DDR5 Trident Z 6400
Samsung 990 Pro
RTX 4080 Super
Corsair Shift RM1000x

So far I've done this:

Lowered PL1 and PL2 to 175 watts
Lite Load 9 (AUTO)
Voltage adaptive/offset -0.125 (screenshots still say -0.110, changed this, still throttles)

It can run for hours perfectly fine, benchmarks all doing great, cinebench R23 multiple runs, Prime95 30 minutes heat/stress test and then when I take a screenshot, HWiNFO says its thermally throttling without showing any high temperatures. HWiNFO also refreshes slowly, even on 1000ms, since the latest update.

Any advice is much appreciated

P.S: I do not experience any instability in the past 6 months I owned this computer, besides a sporadic lag in the audio, there are no crashes, app hangs, game failures, BSOD's or any of that kind.

Edit: All the information is a bit overwhelming and I'm feeling I'm getting lost in all the numbers a bit

 

[citay]

Well, we have P-Core #5 getting much hotter than the others, this is what's causing the thermal throttling, despite the average core temperatures being low. And even that core #5 barely goes up to 80°C in the sensors, so it will just be a short blip of thermal throttling, like a short-lasting hotspot in that area, enough to trip the thermal throttling detection bit, not enough to show up in other ways. To be clear, this thermal throttling is not because your cooler is overwhelmed in any way. On the whole, the temperatures are completely ok, even cool-running, what you would expect from an AIO. This is just one core getting hotter than the others. What you can try for a test, disable "Intel Turbo Boost Max Technology 3.0". See if you still get the hot core like that. I have a feeling this core is somehow favoured. Also, set "Intel C-State", "C1E Support" and "Intel Speed Shift" to Enabled.

As you can read in my Guide: How to set good power limits in the BIOS and reduce the CPU power draw, i usually advise people to undervolt using CPU Lite Load, but then you also have to check that the performance remains in the ballpark, otherwise there's "IA CEP" to disable in the settings. But let's try the other stuff first.

 

[MigraineFilms]

Well, we have P-Core #5 getting much hotter than the others, this is what's causing the thermal throttling, despite the average core temperatures being low. And even that core #5 barely goes up to 80°C in the sensors, so it will just be a short blip of thermal throttling, like a short-lasting hotspot in that area, enough to trip the thermal throttling detection bit, not enough to show up in other ways. To be clear, this thermal throttling is not because your cooler is overwhelmed in any way. On the whole, the temperatures are completely ok, even cool-running, what you would expect from an AIO. This is just one core getting hotter than the others. What you can try for a test, disable "Intel Turbo Boost Max Technology 3.0". See if you still get the hot core like that. I have a feeling this core is somehow favoured. Also, set "Intel C-State", "C1E Support" and "Intel Speed Shift" to Enabled.

As you can read in my Guide: How to set good power limits in the BIOS and reduce the CPU power draw, i usually advise people to undervolt using CPU Lite Load, but then you also have to check that the performance remains in the ballpark, otherwise there's "IA CEP" to disable in the settings. But let's try the other stuff first.

I have set core voltage back to "Auto" and used Lite Load 7, but then it draws a maximum of 1,454 volts, which is way too high for my comfort zone. That's why I like to stick with the manual undervolt because it never goes above 1,35. My system gets unstable when at Lite Load 9 or lower with PL1 and PL2 at 250, but not with the manual undervolt. I don't fully understand how Lite Load works. I've got your tutorial bookmarked though, so lets see where that brings me the next couple of days

Edit: Idle temperatures with LL7 instead of manual undervolt are also 12 to 15 degrees higher and now 3 cores thermally throttle, without hitting that high of a temperature. These are with the settings enabled/disabled you mentioned
I reset the BIOS to the basic settings, then set the PL and PL2 at 200, 300 amps, Lite Load 7 and your settings disabled/enabled as recommended.
It ran for 8 minutes cinebench R23 perfectly fine, and then it said some cores throttled without the temps going over 80 degrees. Cinebench scores were 36k, absolutely normal for this powerload

 

[citay]

Hmm, again P-core #5 is the hottest. Have you tried disabling "Intel Turbo Boost Max Technology 3.0"?

For now, use the method that works best for you, until the new BIOS+microcode is released that will probably hardcode some voltage limits, then you can test in more detail again which settings give the best results. It's a shame that the users have to do all this work manually now, just because Intel threw efficiency completely out the window and only went for "cheap" performance gains using too high voltages to reach too high frequencies, basically a factory overclocking approach. Granted, they say that there's buggy code involved which additionally pushes these CPUs beyond even what Intel set for them. But with Intel going to worse and worse extremes for each generation of high-end CPU models lately, it was going to blow up in their face eventually. This method of achieving better performance (which they "perfected" with the crazy -KS models) was not sustainable.

 

[MigraineFilms]

Ive ran 10 minutes cinebench 24 (crashed at 2 minutes remaining, Lite Load 7 probably caused that because I never went so low). 20 minutes Prime95, nothing weird there, 10 minutes cinebench 23 and one core, number 6 this time, throttled without even being the hottest, that was core 7. This is with an older build of HWiNFO to eliminate a program bug.

I dont think this is actually harmful for the processor, I dont even think it throttles down because my scores are slightly higher than with Lite Load 9, It just triggers the notification for some reason. my AIO doesnt even reach 70% speed because the processor never gets hot enough to reach higher, FanControl doesnt show any temperatures above 81 degrees celcius either.

I'll disable intel turbo boost max, and hope for a quick release of a new BIOS.

Thank you for your help!

Edit: Turboboost disabled, Lite Load set at 8, Cinebench24 is stable this time, with a 2100 score, wich is 100 points below my unlimited settings.
Still one core that thermally throttled, it got noticable warmer this time, but still in the 80's and this time it was Core 7 that throttled.

 

[FlyingScot]

This might be an answer to why you see the thermal throttling flag getting set but temps seem fine. The spikes in voltage and temp could be way too fast for HWINFO to show. The only evidence left behind is the thermal flag/bit remaining tripped. Just a hypothesis. It’s another reason why I like to ride along with BuildZoid when he’s using his trusty oscilloscope. These chips are like a black box.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to reference Andy’s new post over here:
https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?...-for-14700k-msi-z790-mobo.396039/post-2274509

 

[MigraineFilms]

I had hoped the LL setting would eliminate that, might try LL AUTO and manual voltage offset again. I dont really understand the posted reddit thread in capping the voltage, will read it through a couple of times

It appears that setting IA VR voltage limit to about 1,38 or lower if stable, prevents the CPU to draw anything more than 1,38. Sadly, MSI doesnt appear to have this setting in any BIOS

 

[FlyingScot]

I had hoped the LL setting would eliminate that, might try LL AUTO and manual voltage offset again. I dont really understand the posted reddit thread in capping the voltage, will read it through a couple of times

It appears that setting IA VR voltage limit to about 1,38 or lower if stable, prevents the CPU to draw anything more than 1,38. Sadly, MSI doesnt appear to have this setting in any BIOS

BuildZoid did a video where it was clearly a Gigabyte thing.
EDIT: I hear that MSI is now considering the IA VR Voltage max user setting.

 

[MigraineFilms]

I did a 30 minute OCCT maximum stress test, all good. No throttling, no temps above 79 degrees, it only put effective clock to 4800mhz, which seems low. Max clock itself was 5800mhz, this might be the disabled intel boost?

 

[FlyingScot]

I did a 30 minute OCCT maximum stress test, all good. No throttling, no temps above 79 degrees, it only put effective clock to 4800mhz, which seems low. Max clock itself was 5800mhz, this might be the disabled intel boost?

Okay. That’s very good Intel. It gives me direction. Turn 3.0 back on and see what your clocks are.

 

[MigraineFilms]

Okay. That’s very good Intel. It gives me direction. Turn 3.0 back on and see what your clocks are.

Didnt make any difference whatsoever, not in OCCT or Cinebench, Cores stay at 4800, when the benchmark stopped they go to 5800, when idle they hover around 1200.

I went from 36500 cinebench R23 score back to 34000 for some reason, didnt change anything in the BIOS except turning the 3.0 back on

Edit: Might need a break for today, I heard this weird fan noise, just whirling up, every second or so. It just sounded like one of the fans became 10% faster. When I put my head near the PC, it never happened, couldnt hear it. Back to my chair, there was the sound again!... It was the dishwasher

Edit 2: Disabled malwarebytes, steam, epic launcher etc, and the scores are back up to 37.000

 

[MigraineFilms]

I noticed the following limits in HWiNFO, IA Electrical Design Point and IA Max Turbo Limit. Is this due to the lowered iccMax, and is this an issue with balancing power limits in the BIOS? Does this need to be resolved? This happened during Alan Wake 2 gameplay, and during benchmarks.

 

[FlyingScot]

Here's a tip from my own notes, after I tested it.

Tip: HWInfo64 IA: Electrical Design Point/Other… flag (I like to rename it "Current (IccMax) / Other Limited") is set to "Yes" whenever IccMax limit is hit. Note: The Core N Power Limit Exceeded flags are not set for when IccMax is hit. They only get set for watts, e.g. PL1/PL2 limits. Intel XTU will also show "Current/EDP Limit Throttling" = Yes whenever IccMax is hit.

I think IA Max Turbo Limit will get set for several reasons, including power, amps, and hitting the chip's factory maximum hardwired turbo limit (and presumably a maximum manual core ratio).

 

[MigraineFilms]

So, when IccMax limit hits, it just throttles the frequency, right? I can raise it slowly until I find thet it doesnt throttle anymore. Dont really want to get above 308 though

 

[FlyingScot]

I'm not an expert on the amps side, but I would have to assume that current would always be influenced by the type of workload, the frequency, and the voltage. So trying to lock in a specific frequency would be subject to variability. But, in theory, if you tuned the Amps to just be enough to run Cinebench R23 wide open, but not anything more (like Prime95 Small FFTs) then you could use it that way. I did start testing this method myself, but wasn't sure there was any meaningful benefit over just limiting based upon PL1/PL2. So I gave up.

 

[MigraineFilms]

Ok, I've tested quite a bit, with the help of FlyingScot, and these were my findings:

I have downclocked the P cores to 5,6ghz and the E cores to 4,1ghz,
PL1 and PL2: 200 watt
CPU Current Limit: 308A
Lite Load: Mode 7
CPU Over Temp Protection/Throttle Threshold: 95 degrees celsius
TVB Ratio Clipping (Enhanced): Enabled
IA CEP Support: Disabled
Enhanced Turbo: Disabled
P-Core Ratio Limit: 56
E-Core Ratio Limit: 41

This gave me a higher CinebenchR23 score (37500 vs 36200) than with the default frequencies, with temperatures staying around 70 degrees package, 60 degrees celsius cores.
When I raise the PL1 and PL2 to 253 and Current Limit to 400, I have to raise Lite Load to Mode 9 and my scores do not increase, but the CPU will hit 80 to 91 degrees celsius.

When I first got this processor I tested it unlimited with Cinebench 24 which gave me a score of 2207 at 300 watts, peak 400 watts and thermally throttling all the way.
With these limits set, my Cinebench 24 score is 2007, a 10% decrease, perfectly in line with the expectations when Intel provided the recommended settings.

Manual undervolt of -0.110 with AC/DC at 30/110 gives better temperatures and lower voltage, but Lite Load Mode 7 will not give more than 1,36v which is perfectly acceptable. I will try some manual undervolt with an AC/DC of 40/110 once the microcode patch gets released. I'm not comfortable experimenting with overclocking untill then, but I do see some room for more performance in the future. With PL1/PL2 set to 253 and iccMAX to 400, I can maybe increase the frequencies to 5.9 if it doesnt thermally throttle.

I do still get some thermal throttle warnings, but only when running Cinebench R23, not with Prime95, OCCT or Cinebench 24. It also throttles with the current limit, but I think the processor is less busy with reducing frequencies, to which it can maintain a steady performance for longer.
Driving for 50 miles an hour straight is faster and more fuel efficient than driving short bursts of 80 miles per hour and hitting the brakes on every turn.

Included are some screenshots with the settings Ive changed in the BIOS, for those who wish to test them too.

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

Ok, I've tested quite a bit, with the help of FlyingScot, and these were my findings:

I have downclocked the P cores to 5,6ghz and the E cores to 4,1ghz,
PL1 and PL2: 200 watt
CPU Current Limit: 308A
Lite Load: Mode 7
CPU Over Temp Protection/Throttle Threshold: 95 degrees celsius
TVB Ratio Clipping (Enhanced): Enabled
IA CEP Support: Disabled
Enhanced Turbo: Disabled
P-Core Ratio Limit: 56
E-Core Ratio Limit: 41

This gave me a higher CinebenchR23 score (37500 vs 36200) than with the default frequencies, with temperatures staying around 70 degrees package, 60 degrees celsius cores.
When I raise the PL1 and PL2 to 253 and Current Limit to 400, I have to raise Lite Load to Mode 9 and my scores do not increase, but the CPU will hit 80 to 91 degrees celsius.

When I first got this processor I tested it unlimited with Cinebench 24 which gave me a score of 2207 at 300 watts, peak 400 watts and thermally throttling all the way.
With these limits set, my Cinebench 24 score is 2007, a 10% decrease, perfectly in line with the expectations when Intel provided the recommended settings.

Manual undervolt of -0.110 with AC/DC at 30/110 gives better temperatures and lower voltage, but Lite Load Mode 7 will not give more than 1,36v which is perfectly acceptable. I will try some manual undervolt with an AC/DC of 40/110 once the microcode patch gets released. I'm not comfortable experimenting with overclocking untill then, but I do see some room for more performance in the future. With PL1/PL2 set to 253 and iccMAX to 400, I can maybe increase the frequencies to 5.9 if it doesnt thermally throttle.

I do still get some thermal throttle warnings, but only when running Cinebench R23, not with Prime95, OCCT or Cinebench 24. It also throttles with the current limit, but I think the processor is less busy with reducing frequencies, to which it can maintain a steady performance for longer.
Driving for 50 miles an hour straight is faster and more fuel efficient than driving short bursts of 80 miles per hour and hitting the brakes on every turn.

Included are some screenshots with the settings Ive changed in the BIOS, for those who wish to test them too.

View attachment 191243View attachment 191244

Hi mates FS sent me here.

I want to experiment with locking my p-core to a lower frequency (14700kf max turbo is 5.6ghz on two p-cores). When I’ve tried setting 55 as the ratio, my CPU doesn’t down clock to idle frequencies - they stay at 5.5ghz perpetually. I need to test some more, but this is what I observed.

Any thoughts on this? I want to find the best way of capping my frequencies. Cheers

 

[Vassil_V]

Hi mates FS sent me here.

I want to experiment with locking my p-core to a lower frequency (14700kf max turbo is 5.6ghz on two p-cores). When I’ve tried setting 55 as the ratio, my CPU doesn’t down clock to idle frequencies - they stay at 5.5ghz perpetually. I need to test some more, but this is what I observed.

Any thoughts on this? I want to find the best way of capping my frequencies. Cheers

Sorry for jumping in but I can answer that. You have cap it by setting the "Per P-Core Ratio Limit" to 55, as can be seen in the last screenshot from migrainefilm. Leave the "P-Core Ratio" to Auto.

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

Sorry for jumping in but I can answer that. You have cap it by setting the "Per P-Core Ratio Limit" to 55, as can be seen in the last screenshot from migrainefilm. Leave the "P-Core Ratio" to Auto.

That worked - thanks. I don't really have any use for two cores to boost to 5.6ghz - 5.5 works perfectly for me.

 

[MigraineFilms]

That worked - thanks. I don't really have any use for two cores to boost to 5.6ghz - 5.5 works perfectly for me.

That was my sentiment exactly. The single core boost limits itself a bit, but multicore performs way better due to the processor not trying to boost or reduce clock speeds all the time.

Its a shame that I bought an i9, a K version, just to find out I need to be running it slower instead of faster. Not really what I paid the extra cash for.