Optimal settings Z790 Tomahawk Wifi Max i9 14900k

[MigraineFilms]

Hi all, as I was filling other threads with questions, here is a dedicated thread to my question.

Can you help me getting my i9 under control, it keeps thermally throttling even under very low power settings, and I dont fully grasp the undervolt settings.

My system:
i9 14900k
MAG Z790 Tomahawk Wifi max
Deepcool LT720 AIO
Contact Frame
DDR5 Trident Z 6400
Samsung 990 Pro
RTX 4080 Super
Corsair Shift RM1000x

So far I've done this:

Lowered PL1 and PL2 to 175 watts
Lite Load 9 (AUTO)
Voltage adaptive/offset -0.125 (screenshots still say -0.110, changed this, still throttles)

It can run for hours perfectly fine, benchmarks all doing great, cinebench R23 multiple runs, Prime95 30 minutes heat/stress test and then when I take a screenshot, HWiNFO says its thermally throttling without showing any high temperatures. HWiNFO also refreshes slowly, even on 1000ms, since the latest update.

Any advice is much appreciated

P.S: I do not experience any instability in the past 6 months I owned this computer, besides a sporadic lag in the audio, there are no crashes, app hangs, game failures, BSOD's or any of that kind.

Edit: All the information is a bit overwhelming and I'm feeling I'm getting lost in all the numbers a bit

 

[Arctucas]

Doesn't check out for my board/CPU combo, as posted here (granted, i haven't look at all modes, but there is a clear difference):

"This is what resistance/impedance in mΩ (milliOhm) the different CPU Lite Load settings correspond to, valid for both old and new BIOS versions:
CPU Lite Load Normal, Mode 4: AC loadline 0.3 mΩ, DC loadline 0.3 mΩ (this is what i lowered the mode to, verifying that it's stable)
CPU Lite Load Normal, Mode 12: AC loadline 1.1 mΩ, DC loadline 1.1 mΩ (this is the default on the older BIOS versions)
CPU Lite Load Normal, Mode 18: AC loadline 1.7 mΩ, DC loadline 1.7 mΩ (this is the way too high default on the latest BIOS version)
CPU Lite Load Advanced, AC 30 / DC 117: AC loadline 0.3 mΩ, DC loadline 1.17 mΩ (so this way you can set them both directly).
Note: It's possible that some other board/CPU combinations have somewhat different values for a certain mode. They can be read out in HWinfo, as shown above."

Seeing how Mode 22 on that guy's board corresponds to 1.7 mΩ / 1.7 mΩ, it also makes sense, because at least two people have confirmed a crazy default of Mode 22 on their boards, using the latest BIOS version. So the point at which there is 1.7 mΩ / 1.7 mΩ set, it seems to be at a different mode according to the board. This 1.7 mΩ / 1.7 mΩ of course violates Intel's own specs, it's too high.

Let me check mine later tonight after work.

I had read somewhere, do not remember exactly where, that different MSI boards have different Lite Load and LLC impedance, and that may even vary by BIOS version on the same board. Wish I could find that post...

 

[Arctucas]

The fact that MSI doesnt want to share the actual numbers is annoying as hell, how do they expect a user to use the actual provided settings without telling them what they do?

Anyway, my giving up stage:

PL 200
AC 40
DC 40
LLC mode 6
-0.100 undervolt
IA CEP enabled

Gives me 37500 r23 score, which is absolutely fine, keeps temperatures at 74 degrees max.

Setting PL to 253 gives me a 38500 score, temperatures arouns 87 with p core 7 thermally throttling for some vague reason.

Think Im actually happy with this!

Thank you all for your tremendous help!

You can check the AC_LL & DC_LL values in HWiNFO. Uncheck the sensor box on the splash screen, open the application, and then click on CPU and again on the listed CPU, scroll down a ways, and it will display the current values.

 

[MigraineFilms]

You can check the AC_LL & DC_LL values in HWiNFO. Uncheck the sensor box on the splash screen, open the application, and then click on CPU and again on the listed CPU, scroll down a ways, and it will display the current values.

Yeah, I set them manually now. I know what the values of AC/DC are but don't know what the Load Line Calibration values are.
What value of DC does LLC Mode 6 equal too

 

[FlyingScot]

What value of DC does LLC Mode 6 equal too

To answer that question, you’ll need a compass, a roll of sticky tape, two safety pins, one grapefruit (but not too ripe), seven pairs of blue jeans, one AA battery…and a whole lot of blooming luck!

 

[FlyingScot]

The fact that MSI doesnt want to share the actual numbers is annoying as hell, how do they expect a user to use the actual provided settings without telling them what they do?

Anyway, my giving up stage:
PL 200
AC 40
DC 40
LLC mode 6
-0.100 undervolt
IA CEP enabled

Gives me 37500 r23 score, which is absolutely fine, keeps temperatures at 74 degrees max. Setting PL to 253 gives me a 38500 score, temperatures arouns 87 with p core 7 thermally throttling for some vague reason.

Think Im actually happy with this!
Thank you all for your tremendous help!

Okay. I guess we’ll see you back here tomorrow then…with new settings…

 

[MigraineFilms]

Okay. I guess we’ll see you back here tomorrow then…with new settings…

Wooooow, low blow bud, low blow

But yeah, youre probably right

 

[FlyingScot]

Wooooow, low blow bud, low blow

But yeah, youre probably right

Yeah, that was a little below the belt, wasn’t it. But hey, you’re still having fun, aren’t you?

 

[MigraineFilms]

Yeah, that was a little below the belt, wasn’t it. But hey, you’re still having fun aren’t you?

Got a lot of value out of it, by gaining knowledge and having fun!

Honestly quite done now, I dont think there is a magical sweet spot and its just luck of the draw. That one P core getting 13 degrees hotter than the rest is just weird and mucks up my settings.

I'd still want to learn more though!

 

[Arctucas]

Set Optimized Defaults (F6).

Lite Load Normal.

Only changed the Lite Load Mode.

VCore is reading in BIOS at default 3200MHz.

 

[FlyingScot]

Got a lot of value out of it, by gaining knowledge and having fun!

Honestly quite done now, I dont think there is a magical sweet spot and its just luck of the draw. That one P core getting 13 degrees hotter than the rest is just weird and mucks up my settings.

I'd still want to learn more though!

I’m actually starting to question my own mode 5 choice. Mode 6 might turn out to be more balanced.

 

[FlyingScot]

Set Optimized Defaults (F6).

Lite Load Normal.

Only changed the Lite Load Mode.

VCore is reading in BIOS at default 3200MHz.

View attachment 192805

What is your LLC set to? It has to be auto, right?

 

[citay]

Set Optimized Defaults (F6).

Lite Load Normal.

Only changed the Lite Load Mode.

So on your Z790 ACE MAX with 14900K, it matches up to the other guy's values with his MSI Z790 Carbon Wifi and 14900K. In other words, this is the kind of board where some people can get a default mode of 22 = AC loadline 1.7 mΩ sometimes, which of course would lead to crazy high voltages under load. The VRM uses similar powerstages on both boards, the ACE MAX just has a bunch more of them. For my Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI DDR4 (and 13500), the VRM is completely different, and so are the values, they don't match up with that table at all. For me, Mode 18 is already the crazy high one, so i assume my Mode 19 would be your Mode 23 (1.8 mΩ), that's where the modes end for you, but i still have four more modes to go! Heaven knows what wreck of a CPU would ever need an AC loadline that high.

 

[Arctucas]

What is your LLC set to? It has to be auto, right?

Did not bother to check, just loaded Optimized Defaults, and started checking the values for the Lite Load modes.

 

[MigraineFilms]

Yeah, that was a little below the belt, wasn’t it. But hey, you’re still having fun, aren’t you?

you were right though.

as in this topic with a person with the exact same build as I do

https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?threads/z790-tomahawk-max-wifi-14900k-weird-mouse-movement-input-with-different-voltage-and-bios-profiles.402588/

He has 40500 R23 score, PL253, LL Mode 8, nothing else really. I reach 37500 with the same setup, 8% slower.
Also, I do not have much lower scores (36500) when setting PL to 200.
My CPU frequencies did boost higher though, but no higher score.

Also noteworthy: his P-core 7 is also quite hotter (not as much as mine) than the rest. So I take that as normal. It might be luck of the draw, as my test results are the same as most tech review sites.

edit: stupid hyperfixation. R24, with PL200, is 2150, fine. Still a shame I cannot seem to outperform a 13900k though

 

[FlyingScot]

you were right though.

as in this topic with a person with the exact same build as I do

https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?threads/z790-tomahawk-max-wifi-14900k-weird-mouse-movement-input-with-different-voltage-and-bios-profiles.402588/

He has 40500 R23 score, PL253, LL Mode 8, nothing else really. I reach 37500 with the same setup, 8% slower.
Also, I do not have much lower scores (36500) when setting PL to 200.
My CPU frequencies did boost higher though, but no higher score.

Also noteworthy: his P-core 7 is also quite hotter (not as much as mine) than the rest. So I take that as normal. It might be luck of the draw, as my test results are the same as most tech review sites.

edit: it could also be bloat on the PC running in the background, cant disable all services of course

He did have TVB clipping disabled in one of his earlier posts, so his CPU might be boosting regardless of temp. That cannot be good for the long term health of the CPU. Unfortunately, many posts are leaving out potentially critical info. and I’m starting to get lost in the fog of trying to track so many setups and so many people. I don’t know what performance to expect anymore. My 14900KS guy is seeing full stock boosting (which I have never seen) while gaming, 5900Mhz all-core and 6200Mhz single and dual-core. He’s very happy. Yet he only gets 38K in R23.

 

[MigraineFilms]

He did have TVB clipping disabled in one of his earlier posts, so his CPU might be boosting regardless of temp. That cannot be good for the long term health of the CPU. Unfortunately, many posts are leaving out potentially critical info. and I’m starting to get lost in the fog of trying to track so many setups and so many people. I don’t know what performance to expect anymore. My 14900KS guy is seeing full stock boosting (which I have never seen) while gaming, 5900Mhz all-core and 6200Mhz single and dual-core. He’s very happy. Yet he only gets 38K in R23.

Oh, my cores all boost to 5,7 during gaming too, it runs full frequency, just at 100 watts

 

[FlyingScot]

Oh, my cores all boost to 5,7 during gaming too, it runs full frequency, just at 100 watts

Well, maybe all these benchmarks are part of the problem. We already know how challenging it is to tune for both all-core full workload vs. regular activities. Is it time to tune for the apps we actually use? I don’t know.

 

[MigraineFilms]

Well, maybe all these benchmarks are part of the problem. We already know how challenging it is to tune for both all-core full workload vs. regular activities. Is it time to tune for the apps we actually use? I don’t know.

so, just to prove a point about how damn variable benchmark results could be.

Unlimited Power settings (December 2023)
R24: 2290

AC/DC 40, LLC 6, PL253, 400 iccmax, -0.100 undervolt (November 2024):
R24: 2210
R23: 39266

AC/DC 40 LLC 6, PL200, 400 iccmax, -0.100 undervolt (November 2024):
R24: 2118
R23: 36500

Now, I removed all the bloat processes from my PC, killed them in task manager. I set up the priority of the benchmarks to "Realtime" (this makes progress invisible, just shows the end result)
AC/DC 40 LLC 6, PL200, 400 iccmax, -0.100 undervolt (November 2024):
R24: 2143
R23: 37519

I've had LL12, LCC Auto, PL253, iccmax 307 runs that were less than 37K

Random process injection into the CPU, be it a steam game trying to update, a random scan from windows defender, an update scan from samsung magician, do have impact on the results.
I did a random benchmark after some pc usages, and it gave me a 34000 score in R23. Benchmarks are only really reliable to see if your CPU is in the ballpark of generic results, to see if it's still working at performance. Those "1/2% gain" is really just a margin of error, and not a benefit of the adjusted settings in the BIOS

 

[persiz154202d8]

If you want more consistent results, download Benchmate and run the benchmarks on higher priority from the settings. Benchmate runs some processes that make higher and more consistent results.

 

[sascha117715db02f2]

Cinebench R23 still triggers the thermal throttle

Have you tried default values on fast throttling/overTemp protection? Meaning 100°C on both as you seem to have set them to 95. I noticed that on my board/CPU combo (z690 Tomahawk/i7-14700KF), when I had those set to 95, I would also get a thermal throttling entry in HWInfo even though no temp-max values were anywhere near TJMax. Resetting those two to 100°C made that go away.

Also: What happens when you reset everything to optimized defaults and then employ Intel's recommended power-settings for your CPU? I'd start with their "Performance" preset, not sure if they recommend that or the "Extreme" one for the i9, but, whatever. Go with "Intel Default" preset in the BIOS, then double check PL1/2 and ICCmax that the preset produces and, if needed, adjust those to match the Intel recommendations from their spec-sheet.

Might also want to play around with enabling/disabling CEP. I have those disabled on my board.

I'd do what citay recommends in his power-settings thread and start from there and without manual undervolting and see what happens with temps, voltages and power-draw. Then I'd start lowering CPU Lite Load one setting at a time until the PC crashes during stress tests. Then raise CPU LL back up by a step or two and stress test again for stability. In my case (and I would imagine it being as "bad" or even worse on an i9), the default CPU LL setting ("12" now in my BIOS) or the even scarier "Intel Default" setting for CPU LL ("15") result in worryingly high voltages/temps/power draw. I used to be able to go as low as "4" before I started updating my BIOS to 0x125 and then 0x129 and I am now sitting at "6". Without touching anything else related to voltages (other than enabling undervoltage protection), and with Intel's recommended settings of PL1/2 at 253W and ICCmax 307, this results in my VIDs barely breaking 1.4V under the highest of loads.

If you're worried about high voltages/voltage spikes: AFAIK, the 0x129 microcode should be preventing those (I think even Buildzoid conceded that much.. ) and as long as you don't go crazy on ICCmax and don't use the default-setting for CPU LL, you should be able keep the board from sending excessive voltage to your chip. You also shouldn't have to reduce your PLs to 175W (on an i9... lol) - especially when you're sitting at 307/308A ICCmax. Even my puny i7 will not exceed 200W of power-draw in CB23 with 307A, even though I have both my PLs set to 253W. In my system, I have to raise ICCmax to ..err.. 350 or even 360A to make the chip run into the 253W powerlimit instead of into the current-limit.

S.