Owners of 13th/14th Gen Raptor Lake CPUs - Media Reports of serious stability issues

[FlyingScot]

This information is being offered with the intention of keeping owners of these CPUs informed, i.e. knowledge is power. Perhaps if enough people become aware of this situation (and the information provided is indeed accurate) then maybe Intel will offer affected users alternative remedies other than the usual warranty replacement process.

Owners of 13th/14th gen i9’s are reporting what looks like rapid degradation over a period of months that leads to sudden instability. Users are then forced to increase voltage and/or drop boost frequencies to stabilize their systems. In some cases, this problem resurfaces and requires the same approach to be repeated. Another major cause of concern raised in the video, and in user comments, is the stability of the Integrated Memory Control (IMC) and the relationship to DDR5 frequencies above 4200. Random instability due to IMC issues, and perhaps degradation of the IMC, cannot be ruled out. This is clearly a story that is still developing. Owners of i9 CPUs, and indeed all Raptor Lake CPUs, should stay tuned. Follow up videos on this story are promised by Steve at Gamers Nexus.

What’s most alarming about this situation is the fact that even users who took every preventative safety measure, i.e. not overclocking, low PL1/PL2, good cooling, even undervolting, etc., are still reporting instability after just a few months of usage, presumably from what could be degradation. And, judging from user comments, these issues may not just be limited to the i9's.

I do not own one of these chips, but I have been following this story with great interest.

UPDATE 1: For folks who want a quick way to see where things stand at the moment, I suggest you start reading this thread from here. In the first post by forum member, CiTay, you will find several relevant links of importance. I will endeavour to keep adding to this shortcut list as events develop.

UPDATE 2: By now, many of you will be aware that Intel and the motherboard manufacturers have collaborated to release new BIOS code to address the Raptor Lake instability and degradation issues. Should you choose to update to the latest BIOS (with microcode 0x129) and then experience thermal and/or performance issues, you may find this new guide helpful in addressing those concerns.

UPDATE 3: [Sep 26, 2024] Intel and the motherboard manufacturers have collaborated to release new BIOS code (0x12B) to address the Raptor Lake instability and degradation issues. For more information, jump to the following post in this thread.

ADDITION 1: Don't forget to stop by our very own online Raptor Lake Survey, where you can see how others have configured their Raptor Lake systems to balance performance and stability, and to reduce the risk of degradation. You can check it out here.

 

[FlyingScot]

Back to the business of posting media reports on this thread. Check this one out. It’s a bit of a head scratcher. I’m not sure what to make of it. But hey, its just another puzzle piece in this on-going Raptor Lake story. If I had to guess at why 11900’s had such a high failure rate, it would be the old 1.4+V issue again. 11th gen is definitely more voltage happy than 10th. I also read a similar observation by an S.I. who said ”Failure rates had increased since [post?] 10th gen.“

Intel Core 13th and 14th Generation Processors: Failure Rates Compared to AMD Ryzen 5000/7000 Series

Puget Systems, a high-performance custom computer manufacturer, released a report on the failure rates of Intel and AMD processors, revealing some unexpected findings.

www.guru3d.com

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

Back to the business of posting media reports on this thread. Check this one out. It’s a bit of a head scratcher. I’m not sure what to make of it. But hey, its just another puzzle piece in this on-going Raptor Lake story. If I had to guess at why 11900’s had such a high failure rate, it would be the old 1.4+V issue again. 11th gen is definitely more voltage happy than 10th. I also read a similar observation by an S.I. who said ”Failure rates had increased since [post?] 10th gen.“

Intel Core 13th and 14th Generation Processors: Failure Rates Compared to AMD Ryzen 5000/7000 Series

Puget Systems, a high-performance custom computer manufacturer, released a report on the failure rates of Intel and AMD processors, revealing some unexpected findings.

www.guru3d.com

I've seen this. Interesting. Worth pointing out this bit of the article:

Instead, they use their own BIOS settings, adhering to conservative guidelines from Intel and AMD to avoid the high voltage and power settings common on enthusiast-grade motherboards.

This makes guides like Citay's (and your own guidance FlyingScot) even more vital. It is almost certainly excessive voltage that is the root cause of this issue - Buildzoid pointed out that, while overly high transient spikes are to be avoided, it is average voltage over time that is more of a problem in terms of degredation. If you're sitting at 1.45v+ on average during heavy work loads over an extended period of time, it is no wonder your CPU's life span is shortening. These power hungry chips coupled with motherboard's auto OCing leads to the perfect storm.

 

[FlyingScot]

I've seen this. Interesting. Worth pointing out this bit of the article:

This makes guides like Citay's (and your own guidance FlyingScot) even more vital. It is almost certainly excessive voltage that is the root cause of this issue - Buildzoid pointed out that, while overly high transient spikes are to be avoided, it is average voltage over time that is more of a problem in terms of degredation. If you're sitting at 1.45v+ on average during heavy work loads over an extended period of time, it is no wonder your CPU's life span is shortening. These power hungry chips coupled with motherboard's auto OCing leads to the perfect storm.

Yes. Very good points. Voltage…voltage…voltage... Even in the atomic world, there's no free lunch.

i9 users (and others with high voltages) would probably do well to deactivate Single and Twin core boosting, at least until the dust settles. Someone chime in here if you have another idea, but I think there are only two main ways to do that. 1. Use the Manual all-core overclock method to lock all cores to say 55. 2. Disable Intel Turbo Boost 3.0, like CiTay just suggested. That would leave all of us on Intel Turbo Boost 2.0, which has been “tried and true” for years!

 

[MigraineFilms]

Workstation builder Puget Systems' report shows the stability problems with Intel's CPUs can be managed if only you 'mistrust the default settings on any motherboard'

The risk of failure is still there, however, until Intel releases a microcode fix.

www.pcgamer.com

Little bit more information, as we already suspected of course, but nice to see a larger company acknowledging it. I mistrusted the bios on day one when my processor just went like "hey dude, I can suck up 400 watts of power so Im just gonna go ahead and do that, because thermal throttling is a thing to prevent damage anyway"
This may be why I had but one out of a myriad of games and apps crash on me. Never had instabilities due to the fact I immediatly enforced some power limits

 

[citay]

Intel offering extended warranty of 2 years for boxed CPUs. Still advising to reach out to OEMs / system integrators if you need to RMA and bought through them. 5 years warranty isn't too bad.

In a new support entry at Intel, they now list the CPUs that have their warranty extended by an additional two years:

Only true Raptor Lake and Raptor Lake Refresh. Rebranded Alder Lake CPUs (i5-13500 etc.) are not listed and shouldn't be affected.

 

[FlyingScot]

Intel also stated that those who made unsuccessful RMA claims for their processors can reach out to Intel Customer Support for further assistance and remediation. This should prove especially useful for all those who tried to make RMA claims for their processors when these instability issues first came to light, but were met with RMA claim rejections.

I know Steve from Games Nexus was very cynical of such a statement, but I’m sure that Intel will now have to err on the side of the customer, and approve these RMAs.

The only remaining question now is how much replacement inventory is siting on the shelf. I’d like to believe that Intel discontinued the 13th gen sales earlier this year in order to build up their inventory. But then again, it’s Intel we’re taking about here. They could have just as easily made it harder on themselves.

Intel To Discontinue Boxed 13th Gen Core CPUs for Enthusiasts

www.anandtech.com

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

In a new support entry at Intel, they now list the CPUs that have their warranty extended by an additional two years:

Only true Raptor Lake and Raptor Lake Refresh. Rebranded Alder Lake CPUs (i5-13500 etc.) are not listed and shouldn't be affected.

This is actually pretty sweet.
I purchased my PC as a custom from Cyberpower PC in the UK (excellent company BTW). This news means that if anything goes wrong with my CPU over the extended 5 year warranty, I get a brand new one from Cyberpower since they use tray CPUs.
I usually buy a new PC every 5 years anyway, so essentially I'm completely covered.

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

Got my first BSOD today (14700KF).

Events that led to the crash: a few minutes into Windows, I was checking the Event Viewer. I went to Applications and Service Logs > Microsoft > Windows > Kernel-WHEA and noticed that there were a few Information entires listed as WHEA Event ID 20. Note, these were not errors, just info logs.
I suddenly lost control of my mouse and the PC became unresponsive.
I then get the BSOD screen. Temps were all fine / no issues found in HWINFO64.
Unfortunately, the BSOD screen didn't last long enough for me to read it or take a picture of it.

When it rebooted, I had a pop up that said my last known BIOS settings could be loaded.
All of my BIOS settings were preserved and I booted back into Windows.

Everything appears normal now - SFC/Scannow didn't throw up any corrupted data, etc.

Checking Event Viewer again, I saw the following errors.
- Error: volmgr - Configuring the Page file for crash dump failed. Make sure there is a page file on the boot partition and that is large enough to contain all physical memory. Event ID 49
Note: I have since changed my page file settings to be system managed now.
- Error: EventLog - The previous system shutdown at 01:50:18 on ‎07/‎08/‎2024 was unexpected. Event ID 6008
- Critical: Kernel-Power - The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly. Event ID 41

I also ran Who Crashed but it didn't find any error / crash logs.

Thinking this could be the start of my 14th gen degredation journey

 

[Vassil_V]

It is highly possible this had nothing to do with your CPU, BSODs are not something that just recently started happening. It is also possible that it's just a slightly unstable undervolt.
The "Critical: Kernel-Power" event is always logged when there has been an unexpected shutdown or reboot, no matter the reason. Overall, I wouldn't be too concerned yet.

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

It is highly possible this had nothing to do with your CPU, BSODs are not something that just recently started happening. It is also possible that it's just a slightly unstable undervolt.
The "Critical: Kernel-Power" event is always logged when there has been an unexpected shutdown or reboot, no matter the reason. Overall, I wouldn't be too concerned yet.

I might try going to LiteLoad mode 9 and testing.

This just happened on the desktop, so maybe not enough voltage at idle. It’s been running fine for a couple of weeks, but maybe a slight dip sent it over the edge.

 

[citay]

Unfortunately, the BSOD screen didn't last long enough for me to read it or take a picture of it.

Check the crash logs (if there are any) with BlueScreenView (downloads are way on the bottom).

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

Check the crash logs (if there are any) with BlueScreenView (downloads are way on the bottom).

It's not showing anything - I even tried Who Crashed and nothing comes up. The only errors I have are the ones in the event viewer listed above.

I have set my page file to be system managed now and also enabled Kernel Memory Dump debugging under System Failure in start-up and recovery.

I've upped by LiteLoad to mode 9 (formally mode 8) because this crash happened when I was essentially sitting idle on the desktop. Perhaps the voltage was too low. I notice in HWINFO64 that at idle the voltage can drop as low as 0.690v under mode 8.

I initially thought it could be the new installation of my Noctua cooler, but temps have been fine and I've been using the machine for hours without issue before the BSOD.

 

[FlyingScot]

I believe C-States can cause problems at idle if voltage is on the ragged edge. Did you change any of those from the default?

 

[wroger196157202e2]

In a new support entry at Intel, they now list the CPUs that have their warranty extended by an additional two years:

Only true Raptor Lake and Raptor Lake Refresh. Rebranded Alder Lake CPUs (i5-13500 etc.) are not listed and shouldn't be affected.

Citay....hopefully my 13500 isn't affected but between me taking the necessary precautions and knowing Intel has contradicted themselves many times in the current situation already(remember Intel did say ALL 13 and 14 with 65W and higher) I'm keeping my fingers crossed and waiting on the updated microcode supposedly due in a week or two.

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

I believe C-States can cause problems at idle if voltage is on the ragged edge. Did you change any of those from the default?

No changes to C-States - they are on default.

Possibly an unstable undervolt?

Before all of this intel debacle, my LiteLoad was always on mode 9. I moved it down to mode 8 to take voltage down a fraction. OCCT and Cinebench passed, so I stuck with it. I guess idle instability will only present itself after a longer period of time.

 

[FlyingScot]

I guess idle instability will only present itself after a longer period of time.

I, for one, have experienced that very phenomenon with my old Ivy Lake CPU. Idle voltage can be tricky to get right. I think the CPU works a little like a car engine. Sometimes the car’s computer will fail to catch the falling revs fast enough when you pull up to a stop. They fall too far, and the engine stalls. In regards to a car engine, it can be caused by things like vacuum leaks, or a bad fuel pump, etc. Luckily, in the PC world, it’s often just that the voltage fell too far, which is easy to remedy. Unless of course something else is going on, like buggy apps, etc.

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

I, for one, have experienced that very phenomenon with my old Ivy Lake CPU. Idle voltage can be tricky to get right. I think the CPU works a little like a car engine. Sometimes the car’s computer will fail to catch the falling revs fast enough when you pull up to a stop. They fall too far, and the engine stalls. In regards to a car engine, it can be caused by things like vacuum leaks, or a bad fuel pump, etc. Luckily, in the PC world, it’s often just that the voltage fell too far, which is easy to remedy. Unless of course something else is going on like buggy apps, etc.

It’s weird tho because I’ve had zero errors (other than the incredibly vague ones above) that can use to diagnose the issue.

All that happened was my mouse stopped working and then it blue screened.

I’ve changed some settings to hopefully capture more data if it happens again.

 

[FlyingScot]

Citay....hopefully my 13500 isn't affected but between me taking the necessary precautions and knowing Intel has contradicted themselves many times in the current situation already(remember Intel did say ALL 13 and 14 with 65W and higher) I'm keeping my fingers crossed and waiting on the updated microcode supposedly due in a week or two.

While we are on that subject, I‘ve read at least one person question why the 14600 is not on the list. I believe it‘s also a pure Raptor Lake. There’s no question about the 13500, though.

 

[wroger196157202e2]

While we are on that subject, I‘ve read at least one person question why the 14600 is not on the list. I believe it‘s also a pure Raptor Lake. There’s no question about the 13500, though.

It may not be affected....but it is difficult to tell with the way Intel is not being transparent and keeps putting spins on things. Keeping my fingers crossed it isn't affected. Quote from Intel from the verge article(https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/26/24206529/intel-13th-14th-gen-crashing-instability-cpu-voltage-q-a):

"And, perhaps for the first time, Intel has confirmed just how broad this issue could possibly be. The elevated voltages could potentially affect any 13th or 14th Gen desktop processor that consumes 65W or more power, not just the highest i9-series chips that initially seemed to be experiencing the issue."

 

[Vassil_V]

No changes to C-States - they are on default.

Possibly an unstable undervolt?

Before all of this intel debacle, my LiteLoad was always on mode 9. I moved it down to mode 8 to take voltage down a fraction. OCCT and Cinebench passed, so I stuck with it. I guess idle instability will only present itself after a longer period of time.

Idle and light-medium load instability is a pain in the $$$. Before I switched to a desktop recently, I was using a laptop with 12900HX, where I experimented a lot with undervolting, but unfortunately had very limited tools to do so due to the severely limited BIOS. Most of the crashes I experienced were from transient loads, either going from high CPU load to idle or vice-versa. I could repeatedly recreate a crash by just quitting CPU-intensive games such as Cyberpunk 2077 from in-game straight to the desktop. If my CPU core undervolt offset was too much (like -90mV), I immediately got a blue screen upon quitting. Another recreatable crash was the CPU test in TimeSpy - it always showed undervolt instability just after it ended. No crash during the CPU test itself, but BSOD immediately after it finishes. One time I also had a BSOD switching from Borderless to Fullscreen mode within RDR2. However, with -80mV, those never happened. At the same time, CB R23, Prime95, ThrottleStop's TSBench and others were rock-solid at -90mV, both during and immediately after they ended.