Owners of 13th/14th Gen Raptor Lake CPUs - Media Reports of serious stability issues

[FlyingScot]

This information is being offered with the intention of keeping owners of these CPUs informed, i.e. knowledge is power. Perhaps if enough people become aware of this situation (and the information provided is indeed accurate) then maybe Intel will offer affected users alternative remedies other than the usual warranty replacement process.

Owners of 13th/14th gen i9’s are reporting what looks like rapid degradation over a period of months that leads to sudden instability. Users are then forced to increase voltage and/or drop boost frequencies to stabilize their systems. In some cases, this problem resurfaces and requires the same approach to be repeated. Another major cause of concern raised in the video, and in user comments, is the stability of the Integrated Memory Control (IMC) and the relationship to DDR5 frequencies above 4200. Random instability due to IMC issues, and perhaps degradation of the IMC, cannot be ruled out. This is clearly a story that is still developing. Owners of i9 CPUs, and indeed all Raptor Lake CPUs, should stay tuned. Follow up videos on this story are promised by Steve at Gamers Nexus.

What’s most alarming about this situation is the fact that even users who took every preventative safety measure, i.e. not overclocking, low PL1/PL2, good cooling, even undervolting, etc., are still reporting instability after just a few months of usage, presumably from what could be degradation. And, judging from user comments, these issues may not just be limited to the i9's.

I do not own one of these chips, but I have been following this story with great interest.

UPDATE 1: For folks who want a quick way to see where things stand at the moment, I suggest you start reading this thread from here. In the first post by forum member, CiTay, you will find several relevant links of importance. I will endeavour to keep adding to this shortcut list as events develop.

UPDATE 2: By now, many of you will be aware that Intel and the motherboard manufacturers have collaborated to release new BIOS code to address the Raptor Lake instability and degradation issues. Should you choose to update to the latest BIOS (with microcode 0x129) and then experience thermal and/or performance issues, you may find this new guide helpful in addressing those concerns.

UPDATE 3: [Sep 26, 2024] Intel and the motherboard manufacturers have collaborated to release new BIOS code (0x12B) to address the Raptor Lake instability and degradation issues. For more information, jump to the following post in this thread.

ADDITION 1: Don't forget to stop by our very own online Raptor Lake Survey, where you can see how others have configured their Raptor Lake systems to balance performance and stability, and to reduce the risk of degradation. You can check it out here.

 

[citay]

Quote from Intel from the verge article

It has already been somewhat superseded by that aforementioned new support entry at Intel. With a fast-developing issue like this, articles and videos can be outdated within weeks or sometimes days, when new information comes to light. If you quote older articles, they are based on the information that was available at the time.

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

Idle and light-medium load instability is a pain in the $$$. Before I switched to a desktop recently, I was using a laptop with 12900HX, where I experimented a lot with undervolting, but unfortunately had very limited tools to do so due to the severely limited BIOS. Most of the crashes I experienced were from transient loads, either going from high CPU load to idle or vice-versa. I could repeatedly recreate a crash by just quitting CPU-intensive games such as Cyberpunk 2077 from in-game straight to the desktop. If my CPU core undervolt offset was too much (like -90mV), I immediately got a blue screen upon quitting. Another recreatable crash was the CPU test in TimeSpy - it always showed undervolt instability just after it ended. No crash during the CPU test itself, but BSOD immediately after it finishes. One time I also had a BSOD switching from Borderless to Fullscreen mode within RDR2. However, with -80mV, those never happened. At the same time, CB R23, Prime95, ThrottleStop's TSBench and others were rock-solid at -90mV, both during and immediately after they ended.

Will monitor and pray it doesn’t happen again. I’m guessing you can get random one off BSODs?

 

[Vassil_V]

Will monitor and pray it doesn’t happen again. I’m guessing you can get random one off BSODs?

Definitely, BSODs can happen due to many reasons, it's not even guaranteed the CPU has anything to do with your crash. If it's a slightly instable undervolt, bumping up the lite load by +1 should be good enough.

 

[FlyingScot]

It may not be affected....but it is difficult to tell with the way Intel is not being transparent and keeps putting spins on things. Keeping my fingers crossed it isn't affected. Quote from Intel from the verge article(https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/26/24206529/intel-13th-14th-gen-crashing-instability-cpu-voltage-q-a):

"And, perhaps for the first time, Intel has confirmed just how broad this issue could possibly be. The elevated voltages could potentially affect any 13th or 14th Gen desktop processor that consumes 65W or more power, not just the highest i9-series chips that initially seemed to be experiencing the issue."

If it helps to put your mind at rest, I continue to read and hear reports that Alder Lake CPUs (even in a server environment) are definitely not showing any signs of the issue that is plaguing the Raptor Lakes. Whether that's due to the different silicon design, manufacturing process, or microcode, is the question of the century.

 

[wroger196157202e2]

If it helps to put your mind at rest, I continue to read and hear reports that Alder Lake CPUs (even in a server environment) are definitely not showing any signs of the issue that is plaguing the Raptor Lakes, whether that's due to the different silicon design, manufacturing process, or microcode, is the open question.

FlyingScot....since some of the reports I've seen/read mention that the higher voltage breaks/destroys the ring causing degradation, I'm wondering if the 12s and the "13"s like my 13500 use the 12 Gen Ring and whatever new ring Intel is using on actual true 13 and 14 is a different material and/or grade that breaks easier(just my speculative theory, btw).

 

[wroger196157202e2]

It has already been somewhat superseded by that aforementioned new support entry at Intel. With a fast-developing issue like this, articles and videos can be outdated within weeks or sometimes days, when new information comes to light. If you quote older articles, they are based on the information that was available at the time.

Citay...Lol as fast as Intel keeps changing things, information can be outdated within an hour it seems. Lol.

 

[FlyingScot]

FlyingScot....since some of the reports I've seen/read mention that the higher voltage breaks/destroys the ring causing degradation, I'm wondering if the 12s and the "13"s like my 13500 use the 12 Gen Ring and whatever new ring Intel is using on actual true 13 and 14 is a different material and/or grade that breaks easier(just my speculative theory, btw).

I think CiTay would probably agree with anyone who bet that the ring on the 13500 is from Alder Lake. In fact, the most logical thing that Intel could have done (and I know logic and Intel don't always share a common ancestry) would have been to just use a rebadged Alder Lake CPU.

Hey, look at it this way. If in the unlikely situation that your CPU starts to display signs of degradation, you are in the finest company a PC user could wish for. You have CiTay on your side!

 

[citay]

Yes, the 13500 and such are 100% Alder Lake-based, just with a new name to be able to sell them better, and to have some "trickle-down fame" from their 13600K-and-above brothers. There is nothing truly Raptor Lake in them, so it's only natural they came out relatively unscathed (the only question mark is about the oxidation issue).

The deliberate naming confusion, which initially might have helped to sell parts like the i5-13500 (i bought it in the full knowledge it's Alder-Lake-based, of course) is now forcing Intel to release such tables with affected models, instead of being able to simply say "13th and 14th gen".

 

[FlyingScot]

Well, if this ain't a slap in the face with a wet fish.... Although, I can understand why S.I.s would see the cost of taking back the whole computer as financially daunting.

Not All PC Makers Promise to Honour Intel's Extended CPU Warranty

Intel recently announced it would offer an extra two-years warranty on its 13th and 14th gen Core CPUs, but it now seems like not all PC makers will follow suit. The Verge contacted 14 major PC makers and got a very mixed response when they asked if these companies would offer extended...

www.techpowerup.com

In a related story, I recently listened to a game developer say that he just cannot afford to hire an additional employee to RMA all the chips in his hundreds of PCs and servers. He plans to live with the instabilities until the day comes when he just has to take the hit and replace each system. Ouch! It's now becoming obvious that Intel's promise of a 2 year warranty extension is not the silver bullet some of us thought it might be. Of course, if you built your own PC then this news doesn't really affect you.

 

[FlyingScot]

i bought it in the full knowledge it's Alder-Lake-based, of course

Yeah...sure you did. The real story is that you bought it off a guy in a back alley and thought you were getting a Raptor Lake for a steal!

 

[citay]

Hehe. By the way, at a big price comparison site (perhaps the biggest) in Germany, the top ten clicks in the overall CPU category are all AMD now, 7800X3D and 5800X3D leading the pack. In the Intel CPU category, the 12700K has climbed up to #3 again, and in total there's four 12th gen models back in the top ten.

 

[SyntheticStatus]

ASUS first to release 0x129 microcode update for Raptor Lake instability issue - VideoCardz.com

ASUS rolls out new BIOS for LGA-1700 motherboards targeting Intel CPU instability concerns The new BIOS says to contain the expected microcode update. Update: ASUS has confirmed the release of 0x129 microcode update for a number of LGA-1700 motherboard series, including Z690, B760, B660, H610...

videocardz.com

ASUS releases 0x129 microcode to fix stability issues for 20 motherboards

MSI releases it for... 6.

Come on guys, Z790 GODLIKE and Z790 ACE were expensive, those should have been in the first batch! I would bet many more own those boards than the "MAX" variants, too.

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

ASUS first to release 0x129 microcode update for Raptor Lake instability issue - VideoCardz.com

ASUS rolls out new BIOS for LGA-1700 motherboards targeting Intel CPU instability concerns The new BIOS says to contain the expected microcode update. Update: ASUS has confirmed the release of 0x129 microcode update for a number of LGA-1700 motherboard series, including Z690, B760, B660, H610...

videocardz.com

ASUS releases 0x129 microcode to fix stability issues for 20 motherboards

MSI releases it for... 6.

Come on guys, Z790 GODLIKE and Z790 ACE were expensive, those should have been in the first batch! I would bet many more own those boards than the "MAX" variants, too.

It’s up for my board (Z790 MAG TOMAHAWK). Going to test it in a minute. Wish me luck!

 

[crimson8814f802d4]

Download link is broken for me.

 

[Arctucas]

Downloaded the ACE MAX new (A51) BIOS successfully.

Going to keep it in my back pocket until more people 'BETA test' it.

 

[SyntheticStatus]

Downloaded the ACE MAX new (A51) BIOS successfully.

Going to keep it in my back pocket until more people 'BETA test' it.

you should install it ASAP IMO, just to get the new CPU microcode. No reason to tax your CPU extra with the old microcode just because its beta

 

[Arctucas]

you should install it ASAP IMO, just to get the new CPU microcode. No reason to tax your CPU extra with the old microcode just because its beta

I have no issues with my current setup, not wanting to introduce any from so-far untested BIOS.

I can wait.

 

[patstock2148155a02df]

129 update download page seems broken for z790 tomahawk wifi

 

[FlyingScot]

Here is the latest update on the Raptor Lake situation.

Intel Ships 0x129 Microcode Update for 13th and 14th Generation Processors with Stability Issues

Intel has officially started shipping the "0x129" microcode update for its 13th and 14th generation "Raptor Lake" and "Raptor Lake Refresh" processors. This critical update is currently being pushed to all OEM/ODM partners to address the stability issues that Intel's processors have been facing...

www.techpowerup.com

While the tone of this article would suggest that the problem of future degradation has been fixed, I still remain skeptical of the 1.55V limit.

Also, I do not remember seeing an option in MSI‘s BIOS to disable eTVB (which I believe is responsible for those 6GHz+ frequencies on the 14th gen i9’s) but would welcome such a feature if MSI includes it with an upcoming BIOS release. It would be another useful tool for limiting the preferred core boosting that results in high voltages for the entire CPU. EDIT: Thank goodness Migrainefilm... is keeping me straight. He just informed me that eTVB is probably the existing BIOS setting called "TVB Ratio Clipping Enhanced". In that case, I DO NOT recommend disabling it. More on that later...

In a related story, JayZ did a quick test of the new 0x129 microcode on an MSI Z790 Carbon II motherboard with a 14900K. You can watch it here.

 

[citay]

Here is the latest update on the Raptor Lake situation.

Intel Ships 0x129 Microcode Update for 13th and 14th Generation Processors with Stability Issues

Intel has officially started shipping the "0x129" microcode update for its 13th and 14th generation "Raptor Lake" and "Raptor Lake Refresh" processors. This critical update is currently being pushed to all OEM/ODM partners to address the stability issues that Intel's processors have been facing...

www.techpowerup.com

After my initial observations of some people having higher temperatures even with the 0x125 microcode BIOS (but also 0x129), and some further reports (here too), there is reason to believe that at least in some configurations, the default mode for "CPU Lite Load" (the higher the mode, the higher the VCore) will now be higher than before. As explained here, the logical reason for higher temperatures is higher power draw. And what i believe may be happening now ties in with what Intel write in their latest statement there:

"Intel's current analysis finds there is a significant increase to the minimum operating voltage (Vmin) across multiple cores on affected processors due to elevated voltages. Elevated voltage events can accumulate over time and contribute to the increase in Vmin for the processor."

If we think for a minute, what would be the "cheapest" way of fixing CPUs which already have a certain amount of degradation and might have started to become slightly unstable as a result? Raising the default voltages a bit. Like i write in the last link: "Perhaps this is an attempt to stabilize CPUs that have already become slightly unstable from degradation, because now that there's some "voltage spike limit" in place with the new microcode, they felt comfortable pushing the default voltage a bit higher?"

Gigabyte have tried the same before (foolishly, as this was well before there was any voltage limit via microcode). It might now be the new attempt of salvaging the situation a bit, making slightly unstable/deteriorated CPUs stable again, at the cost of higher power draw and temperatures for everyone. This is only good for two parties: Intel and the board makers, because they get less RMA requests and service tickets like that. But for the end user, especially if their CPU is not degraded, this makes everything worse. They can even lose performance if the CPU now has a higher power draw and temperatures and runs into the power/temp limits earlier and harder. If they have undervolted with a VCore offset before, it might not have nearly the same effect, as the additional voltage added my the higher mode for CPU Lite Load is now more. This is why i encourage anyone battling with high power draw and temperatures to look at my guide about getting those under control.

I believe the last word is not spoken on this whole deal. The new microcode might be preventing the most dangerous voltage spikes, but if the new theme is now to run the CPUs with higher voltages on average, to mitigate the instability problem somewhat, then this definitely also has downsides. I mean, i understand Intel and the board makers, it is very hard to come up with good defaults that work for all CPUs and situations out there and don't have too many downsides. Realistically, you can only truly optimize it on an indivual, per-CPU basis, something like i explain in my guide for example, and not with a one-size-fits-all set of BIOS settings. But this trend that some people have reported, about having higher power draw and temperatures than before, when the current CPU generations already have the highest power draw and heat ever, this is definitely not something good.