PRO Z690 A Wifi DDR5 - Beginner's Guide to overclocking

sovitzk154402d7

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My 2nd post - so exciting! ;)

Anyway, purchased a decent gaming rig with the following:
PRO Z690-A Wifi DDR5
Intel i9-13900KF (liquid cooled, of course) plenty of case fans
Purchased - (2) 32GB G.Skill RipJaws S5 Series (Intel XMP) DDR5 5600 (64GB)
Came with - (2) 16GB Avant DDR5 4800 (32GB)
RAM = 96 GB
(Windows and BIOS reports System RAM running at 4000 Mhz)
Came with - 1 TB M.2 Kingston SNV2S1000G NVMe Gen4 SSD
My own - 2 TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus (Gen3?)
AUS TUF RTX 4070 Ti 12GB GDDR6X (531.41)

I think that's the main guts. What I am looking for is a guide for newbies on overclocking. I know I can't enable the XMP Profile 1 in the BIOS because of the 'crap' RAM they put in. I would need to purchase add'l XMP ram or take out the initial 32 GB.

The only change I have made from the stock is changing the P-core ratio from 30 (3000 Mhz) to 33 (3300 Mhz). Windows still reports the same base speed (3.0 Ghz). I know I don't know what I am doing so I am just looking for quick advice or a link that can help me understand what my options are and what I can reasonably and safely get away with. :)
1680883028545.png


On the CPU Turbo Max line you can see it is at 33 x 100 = 3300 Mhz. I assume that didn't do as I expected (up the base CPU freq from 3.0 to 3.3 Ghz). Do I also need to adjust the multiples for the E-core's too? (See, I told you I was a newbie).

Thank you for any and all assistance you can provide!
 
Definitely take out the existing 2x 16 GB DDR5-4800 whoever put in there, this causes nothing but trouble. DDR5 highly dislikes when you use four modules (explained in my RAM thread), and using two different RAM kits is a total no-no, this creates huge problems for the memory system. So in order to have any chance of your 2x 32 GB running at their DDR5-5600, they need to run as the sole kit in slots A2 and B2 (2 and 4 from the left).

Second of all, about overclocking. You picked the worst CPU for that. An i9-13900K(F) is already "factory-overclocked", so to speak. If you select "Water Cooler" in the BIOS, which maxes out the power limits, the CPU is already almost uncoolable at over 300W on a very small surface (much smaller than the IHS = heatspreader where the cold plate of your water cooler sits on). The best air cooler (Noctua NH-D15) can barely hold it at a touch over 100°C, and most AIOs would struggle just the same. Only a custom loop might deal with the CPU at stock settings. If you then try to OC on top of what is already an extremely pushed-to-the-max Voltage-per-Frequency curve by Intel, you will probably surpass 400W of pure CPU power draw under full multithreaded load, which is pretty much impossible to cool with conventional methods.

(Picture: MSI cannot recommend any off-the-shelf cooling for i9, because it's just so power-hungry, so they recommend a custom loop water cooler.)

cooling.jpg


Another thing that speaks against OC: Intel are doing a process called "binning" with the 13900K. The CPUs that can do more than the already high turbo frequencies of the 13900K are put aside to be sold as 13900KS, with even higher turbo clocks and even higher VCore. Both these parts can be considered factory-overclocked, as i mentioned, because Intel are pushing their CPUs to the absolute maximum already, 99% of their capabilites are extracted with a very aggressive VCore setup, and resulting insane power draw, all to somehow beat the latest AMD CPU at the time and have some slightly longer bars in the launch review benchmarks. To extract the remaining 1%, you would have to go even harder than they did on the 13900KS (which has a phenomenally low efficiency), because your 13900K(F) is not binned, meaning it's not the same quality as the KS, despite being the same silicon. But: You can't go harder than that, it would become uncoolable.

Now, your method was also wrong, the base clock is completely irrelevant. Under load, the CPU will clock much higher than that, those are the turbo clocks. They depend on the level of load. Fully multithreaded load (all cores fully loaded) will result in the lowest turbo clocks, because you have the least amount of power draw and temperature headroom left. Once you produce fully multithreaded load for example with Cinebench R23 Multi, you will see the temperatures rise up quickly in HWinfo64.

Whatever OC attempts you did in the BIOS, you need to reset everything to defaults, you have apparently crippled your CPU. It now shows 33x as the highest turbo multiplier, castrating it to a CPU model of a fraction of the price. Just leave the frequency settings at default, what you want to play with are the power limits in the BIOS, which can be adjusted to be in line with your cooling capabilities. Because that's what it will come down to, if you cooling can handle 250+W or not. By "handle", i mean, stay below 90°C to have some reserves for higher ambient temperatures.

And don't be tempted to use some automatic OC methods like GameBoost, they don't work well, especially with your CPU. They will try to push some fixed multi OC at a certain VCore (to somehow improve the fully multithreaded benchmark number), but can end up losing performance in a lot of scenarios with full load on less cores (which is far more common in daily use). Because overclocked with a fixed multi OC, it will actually boost less high in those scenarios than if you left everything at stock. Not to mention that you completely kill the efficiency with any OC you do on this CPU model, and the efficiency is already bad to begin with by Intel pushing it so hard. So the power draw will shoot into the sky, but the performance will hardly benefit, it could even stagnate or decrease for things like gaming, because the CPU could boost higher at stock.

Contrary to OC and maxing out the power limits, you can go the opposite way of lowering the power limits manually. Here's an excerpt from a review,

Screenshot 2022-10-22 at 22-22-46 Core i9-13900K i7-13700K & i5-13600K Gaming-Könige im Test L...png


It's German, says "Multi-core performance at particular power limits, 241W with the 12900K as the reference point". By setting a power limit of 253W for example, it gets the temperatures for fully multithreaded load more under control, while costing hardly any performance. It's obvious Intel went brute force in order to win a couple benchmarks vs. AMD here, and it's not necessary at all to allow that high of a power draw. I estimate that around 200W or even below would be the best setting to regain some much-needed efficiency. I can explain this all about the power limits in more detail later, and how to tune them.

Also recommended viewing,


Finally, i wonder why they paired the second most high-end CPU available with the cheapest Z690 board that MSI are selling (PRO Z690-A Wifi). You should always match the board with the CPU somewhat, matching the cheapest of one thing with one of the most expensive of the other is often asking for trouble. Luckily, the PRO Z690-A Wifi doesn't have such a bad VRM section that you should fear VRM-induced throttling at stock speeds, provided that you have some airflow through the case. But this could've gone wrong, with previous Intel generations it would've gone wrong, because there the cheap board models were built more cheaply. But if you ever uttered the word "OC" to the people who built this PC, they straight away should've selected a higher-up board model, they cheaped out here.

Same as they did on the RAM by the way, the DDR5-4800 is not befitting a 13900KF (by the way, i would've gone for the 13900K, the integrated graphics can be very helpful for troubleshooting one day). DDR5-4800 is a bottleneck for a 13900K, because everything it does has to be loaded through the RAM first, and DDR5 completely depends on high speeds to make up for the increased latencies it carries.

Another thing they definitely cheaped out on is the boot SSD. The Kingston NV2 is a low-end M.2 PCIe SSD lottery, in the bad sense. It can use two different controllers, but despite both controllers being PCIe 4.0 x4 compatible, the performance is more or less limited to around PCIe 3.0 x4 speeds. Then there is the NAND flash, of which Kingston reserve the right to use common TLC NAND or bad-performing QLC NAND (by not specifying even the type of NAND), and they actually make use of that. So there are at least four different variants of this SSD, none much good.

In summary, while it's miles better than the horribly performing NV1, the NV2 is still a DRAM-less budget SSD with a complete lottery of what components are used, and the performance is capped at PCIe 3.0 x4 speeds, negating the need for a PCIe 4.0 x4 interface. In my opinion, Kingston should stick more to RAM, they historically offered more bad SSD models than good ones...

The final piece of hardware they could've cheaped out on is the PSU. Which is again a worrying thing, considering your CPU and GPU which are rather powerful. So if you could look that up, the model is written on the sticker, or maybe you have it in your documents.

Long story short: No OC. Let's first try to get this thing working at nominal speeds successfully, without the temperatures getting out of hand.

If your BIOS is the latest version, do a Clear CMOS and let's start from scratch with just the two modules of the faster RAM kit in the second and fourth slots from the left.
If your BIOS is older, update to the newest one from here, this will also reset your settings to defaults. On the cooler selection prompt after the Clear CMOS or the BIOS update, select "Water Cooler" (this will max out the power limits), and then we can check out what's happening with that. Enable XMP for your RAM.

I will tell you later how we find out the best settings, but first i think you have some things to digest now...
 
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Wow, thank you very much for all your welcome advice. I will spend more time in a day or two to respond with more detail, but let me give you my quick thoughts now:

CPU/MB: I would not purchase this rig again. Pairing a lower-end MB with a near-top CPU. Oh well...(This PC is crazy fast...)
RAM: I was thinking of taking out the (2) 16GB and buying this -
Corsair Vengeance RGB DDR5 96GB (2x48GB) 5600MHz C40 Intel Optimized Desktop Memory (Dynamic Ten-Zone RGB Lighting, Onboard Voltage Regulation, Custom XMP 3.0 Profiles, Tight Response Times) Black
I know you said not to mix and match kits - is this recommended? At least I would have (2) kits both DDR5 5600 and both XMP. I could conceivably enable the XMP 1 profile in BIOS...? What do you think?
Boot SSD - I have seen other things online showing this being a bargain SSD. As the system is silly fast now, I can plan to re-install Windows at a later date onto a 980 Pro or 990 Pro. That would kick. I am good for now.
Power Supply is 850W. Apexgaming AG-850M.

Thanks again. I'll post more later.

- Michael
 
RAM: I was thinking of taking out the (2) 16GB and buying this -
Corsair Vengeance RGB DDR5 96GB (2x48GB) 5600MHz C40 Intel Optimized Desktop Memory (Dynamic Ten-Zone RGB Lighting, Onboard Voltage Regulation, Custom XMP 3.0 Profiles, Tight Response Times) Black
I know you said not to mix and match kits - is this recommended?

No, it's not. Whatever total RAM size you need, i highly suggest getting it as two modules. You will be extremely hard-pressed to find anything that needs more than 32 GB total to begin with. Certainly not games. I explain that under 3) in my RAM thread. Basically, games get optimized so they run on the latest consoles, and even the PlayStation 5 only has 16 GB of RAM. So games are designed from the ground up not to need more RAM, which then also applies to the PC versions of those games for the most part. There are a handful of games that utilize more than 16 GB of RAM (without running all that much better), but above 32 GB, i am not aware of any. This will also not change in the mid-term, 32 GB will remain the "well-equipped" configuration for quite a while. So with 64 GB you have already more than you need, unless you have some specific professional software or use case that requires more.

About using different kits of RAM with the same speed and timings: There can only be one set of RAM parameters for the whole memory system, but then it would have to be some compromise that tries to make two RAM kits with different ICs (memory chips) happy at the same time, even though they need different parameters from the board. And i'm not talking about the speed and timings here, these might be 100% identical, i'm talking about the electrical parameters. So the IMC (integrated memory controller of the CPU) has to do "the splits". It sees two different memory ICs being used, both with different requirements for certain parameters on the memory bus. This doesn't usually go well. Furthermore, using four modules with DDR5 apparently leads to a sharp drop of signal quality.

The absolute minimum would be to use exactly identical kits. But: Only Corsair are even selling four-module kits of DDR5, none of the other RAM makers have dared to do that. This tells you it's quite difficult, and Corsair might be getting a lot of RMAs because of issues related to four-DIMM operation. If running four high-capacity DDR5 modules was easy, there would be lots of kits like that, as with DDR4 (there it can also cause problems, but less exaggerated).

Boot SSD - I have seen other things online showing this being a bargain SSD.

It's definitely a budget SSD, i wouldn't call it a bargain though, you get what you pay for. They will have done the usual trick of sending out the SSD with the best possible parts combination (fastest controller + TLC NAND), then what's sold later to the public will use the cheaper controller and cheaper QLC NAND, so you won't get what they had in the review. And Kingston are quite open about, never guaranteeing a certain configuration, which is a good reason to normally stay away from this SSD. Yes, for normal use you probably won't notice much difference, but again, you have a really high-end CPU, and all the other stuff is from the bargain bin more or less (no offense)... it doesn't match well.

Power Supply is 850W. Apexgaming AG-850M.

Argh, i knew it. Cheaped out again. Apexgaming PSUs are listed as "Tier E • Avoid" on the PSU tier list.

It has an impressively long warranty period, but it uses cheap Chinese capacitors which would never last that long under normal circumstances. So what do they do, they crank up the cheap fan in the unit to always keep the capacitors extra cool and not generate too many premature RMA requests.

From a professional review (yes, there are also unprofessional PSU reviews) of the AG-850M: "At $110, we cannot recommend the AG-850M. If you want a quiet PSU, definitely stay away from it. Hopefully Apexgaming and Solytech consider our findings and decide to improve this platform. We don't want to discourage fresh faces in a category already dominated by a handful of OEMs. However, we expect any newcomer to do its research before stepping onto the scene with a product that doesn't match up. Otherwise, it won't see the sales needed to cover its expenses."

The rated wattage is just about enough at 850W, but the quality of the PSU is more important than the wattage. Cheap PSU that boast with a high rated wattage get in trouble when you come anywhere close to that power draw with your system, but good PSUs can even deliver even more than they're rated for without any parameter of the voltages going out of spec. With a high-quality 850W PSU, i would've said absolutely nothing, but you got a low-quality one, so...

Anyway, have a look through my Guide: How to find a good PSU. I don't want you to go out and replace all your new parts right away, but you can immediately see that they did the usual thing with complete PCs here: Spend money on a few parts that the Average Joe user pays attention to (CPU, GPU, perhaps RAM size and SSD size), and save money on all the parts where those users don't have in-depth knowledge (mainboard model, RAM model, SSD model, PSU model). This is how they make their cut, and this is how the deal ends up being less good than you thought.

Sorry, i hope that didn't bum you out too much, but i can't beat around the bush too much either with that stuff. They used some parts which are mediocre at best, only some parts are good.
 
Ouch. Don't worry about your comments. I appreciate it, a lot. Learning, always learning. ;)

The PSU. Yeah. I don't believe it to be a long-term issue. Not intending to do a LOT of gaming. I know, why get a 4070 Ti then? Well, I want to do some gaming, but, the main role of the machine is more to do professional work (cloud-based admin), and write technical posts for an IT knowledgebase website. The core reason for amounts of RAM - running many Hyper-V VMs simultaneously. And, let me say, this machine runs circles around my past machine when firing up Windows 10/11 and Windows Server VMs. My goodness. Reboots take seconds. VERY nice. What do you think about this idea:

Purchase another 64GB kit (2) DIMMs of what I already purchased - the G.Skill kit. I know I would have (128GB) 4 DIMMs of DDR5, generally not awesome, but I would at least have 4 of the 'exact' same DIMM (timings, speed, etc.). Right? Is that recommended? Again, at least the CPU wouldn't have to do any guesswork AND I could enable XMP...

Aside from that, I will continue to learn more and educate myself more. I would say Phase II for this machine will be replacing the boot SSD and getting a more reliable and robust PSU. But, 12 months down the road, at a minimum.

Thanks again for your help!
 
Honestly......I realize you need the ram for what you do but......
I'd replace the PSU asap.....more than anything else. While it may work OK now......it's definitely junk and I wouldn't risk it, as you may just need to replace everything when that PSU blows up and takes out the motherboard, CPU, and GPU in one foul swoop.......Just something to think about.
The PSU ensures all your things work properly......so why skimp on it? Expect to pay $100, maybe $150 to get something that's good quality and going to last a long while.
 
Ouch. Don't worry about your comments. I appreciate it, a lot. Learning, always learning. ;)

I am glad you take it as i meant it: Hopefully useful information that can help you avoid making mistakes and and help improve the system later. Some people don't take it too well when i appear to criticise several aspects of their system, but i really just want everyone to have the best system possible and gain the knowledge to achieve that. I always think of it like this: When you take your car for an inspection, you want the mechanic to give you the hard facts, even though it might end up hurting your feelings or your wallet a bit. So that's my intention, i don't like to sugar-coat something bad when i see it.

Purchase another 64GB kit (2) DIMMs of what I already purchased - the G.Skill kit.

Yes, of all the four-module-options, this is pretty much the only viable one. Mixing different kits (of different sizes etc.) will have slim to no chance of ever working at a decent speed. Using two identical kits, you still have a lot of stress on the memory system, likely preventing you from reaching high speeds above DDR5-6000, but DDR5-5600 is achievable like that. Maybe XMP will straight-up work, or maybe it will need some slight tuning of certain memory-controller-related voltages. It's also good to see that you have good reason for so much RAM.

I would say Phase II for this machine will be replacing the boot SSD and getting a more reliable and robust PSU. But, 12 months down the road, at a minimum.

The SSD is low-priority. Now that you have it already, it's not such a big deal to keep it, it's not holding you back too much. It's just something that should've been a better model to begin with. The PSU, well, that's up to you. Once you put some load on your system, you may quickly get annoyed by the aggressive fan profile they have chosen in an effort to keep the components cool enough and prolong their life. In other words, this unit quickly becomes noisy under some load. And the performance isn't up to par, loose voltage regulation and high ripple under load, which stresses all the attached components.

The PSU is the foundation of the entire system, so you always want to start with a solid foundation. If i were to prioritize something for my own system, i'd put a good PSU at the top of my list. This Apexgaming PSU is probably gonna last a year without any obvious problems other than the high noise, but looking at your CPU and GPU, it's not a good match to quench their thirst in an adequate manner. Right now you could probably sell your PSU at a decent price because it's as good as new, and this would soften the blow of a new purchase.
 
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Citay,

I purchased the (2) 32 GB kit of G.SKILL and have 128 GB. Here are my latest settings in BIOS. XMP enabled and everything Auto. However, I am getting BSOD and my browser crashing. How can I troubleshoot what the issue is? Windows 11 does see 128GB running at 5600Mhz. Thanks!

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I purchased the (2) 32 GB kit of G.SKILL and have 128 GB. Here are my latest settings in BIOS. XMP enabled and everything Auto. However, I am getting BSOD and my browser crashing. How can I troubleshoot what the issue is? Windows 11 does see 128GB running at 5600Mhz. Thanks!

Can you take a screenshot of the voltages, further down on the same BIOS page? Still with XMP enabled. But then disable it until we figured out a solution for DDR5-5600.
You don't want any instability to corrupt your Windows installation.
 
Thank you. ATM, I am running 'Memory Try It' at 5200Mhz (don't remember the specific item...there are SO many options in Advanced Options!) and Windows 11 is stable. I don't recall if I have XMP Enabled or not. I will get my current settings and voltages later today. Need to work right now. ;)

My goal is running 5600Mhz stable, of course, but itis NOT a biggie. However, it is still a goal. Want to get what I paid for. (I know...there are sub-optimal parts in this system).
 
I am running 'Memory Try It' at 5200Mhz (don't remember the specific item...there are SO many options in Advanced Options!) and Windows 11 is stable.

My goal is running 5600Mhz stable, of course, but itis NOT a biggie. However, it is still a goal. Want to get what I paid for. (I know...there are sub-optimal parts in this system).

For 128GB memory that's great!

I have to remind you a few things:
1) Intel does not guarantee 128GB memory at 5600MHz for any of the current CPUs
2) You won't find any G.SKILL DDR5-5600 128GB kit
3) mixing memory modules or kits is never a good idea.
 
Thanks for the tip. I don't believe I'm technically mixing modules as I am running (4) 32GB DIMMs of the exact same kind, the G.SKILL I mentioned above.

I am still tweaking...
 
I don't believe I'm technically mixing modules as I am running (4) 32GB DIMMs of the exact same kind, the G.SKILL I mentioned above.

You should believe ... :biggrin:
2 x 2 x 32GB is not the same with 4 x 32GB (we're not at school here! :biggrin:)
You have 2 kits.
The modules from one kit are not 100% matched with the modules from the other kit.
You need a single 128GB factory matched kit.
 
I just am trying now 5400Mhz. Sorry, damn. I again forgot to grab the exact option. I believe I chose one of the 'CL36' options in Memory Try It next to 5400 G2.

Have had Windows up for 11 minutes. All good so far. Really, even if this doesn't work, I am good with 5200. I mean, this system is silly fast.

Anyway, if you want further info, please let me know. Thanks!

1681410738227.png
 
There are quite a few programs you can use to test memory stability. Hci memtest kahru ram test, etc. You can also run things like linpack and y cruncher to test for instability.

I think just having windows running for any length of time, be that 30 minutes or 30 hours, is probably not enough to say it's stable, and unstable memory can corrupt your system in the long run.
 
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