QUESTION REGARDING STOCK CLICK BIOS SETTINGS...

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Aug 16, 2020
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39
Ok so...

I recently updated my mobo and cpu from z390 MEG ACE / 9900K to z690 MAG CARBON WIFI / 12900K and did so without having to reinstall windows (not sure if that part matters but please read on).

When I bought the new CPU and MOBO, I had the store mount the cpu and new ram and thy updated to newest bios for me.

Now, if I remember correctly, when I overclocked my old 9900k I had to go into the OC settings in the BIOS and manually change the Over Clock setting from Normal to Expert to proceed with the actual ovwrclock but on the new Carbon board, even with OPTIMAL BIOS SETTINGS turned back on, that setting sits on Expert out of the box.

What I'm wondering is... I don't have any OC on the 12900k atm (except for xmp on ram) and when running Cinebench r23 10 minute test, I get slight thermal throttle and I'm wondering if the BIOS itself may be "messed up" in its settings out of the box?

Also, I monitor with AIDA64 Extreme and also have Core Temp on thr machine along with NZXT CAM (mostky fir lighting) and the temps between these 3 softwares are NOT consistant at all.

At idle, AIDA shows the CPU at say between 30 and 35C and CAM for example shows like 26 or 27C.

Im sorry for what is likely a noob type question but can someone assist me or give me advice here? Can not reinstalling Window ls cause these types of quirks and is it possible that certain BIOS settings from the z390 board may be somehow "hung over" to the new z690 board?

Please advise...

THANKS!!!
 
First, about Windows. Windows sets itself up according to the hardware and BIOS (and its settings) it detects during installation. The drivers you or Windows installs are also quite specific to the platform that was used, and won't be ideal or won't be active anymore with the new hardware. What's more, with the 12th gen Alder Lake CPUs, they contain a so-called Thread Director, which relies on Windows 11 to provide proper scheduling to the appropriate cores. This all leads to the outcome that entirely new hardware might not work in the optimal way when you just try to re-use your existing Windows. On Intel, anything further than a one-platform-gap (say, from Z390 to Z590) usually warrants a fresh install. I personally always do a fresh install with a new board+CPU, even when i just go to the very next platform.

Then, once Windows is installed, i install the drivers in this order: Always Intel Chipset driver first, then Serial I/O and Management Engine (all from MSI support site). Then Intel LAN (Wired driver x64), WLAN (Driver64), BT drivers, then perhaps AMD/NVIDIA graphics driver from them, as well as Realtek audio driver from MSI. By that time you should be online and Windows Update can do the rest.



About your 12900K, that is a very extreme CPU. Today's higher CPU models are as if Intel "stock-overclocked" them, meaning, Intel went above the point they should've gone on the voltage-per-frequency curve, in order to beat AMD in certain benchmarks. They exploited all the frequency potential and then some. So you can't really overclock them either. Not only that, even at stock settings they can cause a big headache for your cooling.

So not only is there no headroom anymore, but the higher you go in the model range, they already behave like overclocked CPUs, with increased power consumption and lowered efficiency (even if you don't change any setting at all). This goes so far that lowering the power limits - in other words, restricting the power draw - can regain some lost efficiency (or make it even possible to cool the CPU in the first place): https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-i9-12900k-alder-lake-tested-at-various-power-limits/

It also helps to explain why the new top model 12900KS is such a power-hungry beast, has such bad efficiency as a result, and very bad price/performance to boot:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-i9-12900ks/23.html
They allow the KS to draw way much power for a laughably small performance increase, just to keep the "fastest gaming CPU" crown. So this is the end product of the tendency during the last couple CPU generations of clocking the higher CPU models more and more aggressively, to exploit every last bit of performance that can be squeezed out of them. If the 12900K was already using brute force, then the KS uses sheer violence.

That development is why, even on a 12700K, let alone a 12900K, you can't substantially overclock anymore, unless you're willing to use brute force and throw calculation efficiency right out the window. But even if you're willing to do that, the skyrocketing power consumption and limited ability in removing that heat from the tiny CPU surface will stop you before there's really any relevant payoff in performance.

Over here you can read a thread where i helped someone lower the power limits on the 11900K to get it slightly more under control (even though we didn't find the optimal point yet, because at some point he was already satisfied): https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?...ns-solid-as-a-rock.377267/page-2#post-2137563

Something very similar has to be done with your 12900K if it runs into thermal throttling. Out of the box, the BIOS may default to "Water Cooler" (power limits maxed out) or you or someone else may have selected that, since you actually have a water cooler (presumably, you don't mention your actual cooler model). But this cooler selection is just a thinly disguised way of setting the power limits. When you let a 12900K off the leash like that, even some good water coolers cannot deal with it anymore for prolonged full load like Cinebench is creating.

In the link about the power limits, you will see that you can gain a lot of efficiency by lowering the limits. The CPU will spend less energy to complete a certain calculation (even though it may take slightly longer, but the performance drop is much lower than the efficiency gain), all the while staying much cooler. So in a way, you can revert the decisions that Intel made when they came up with the specs of this CPU, in that their only goal was to beat certain AMD CPUs in benchmarks, and didn't care about the efficiency. You can get it more towards Ryzen levels of efficiency.

As for hardware monitoring, they might simply read out different sensors. CPU package vs. individual core temps and so on. I swear by HWinfo64 "Sensors", you can see all the sensors at once.

If you want further help, post all your hardware in detail (including PSU and case models), and post the same HWinfo64 sensor screenshot i talk about in the thread i linked.
I can help you find the best settings for your situation.
 
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First, about Windows. Windows sets itself up according to the hardware and BIOS (and its settings) it detects during installation. The drivers you or Windows installs are also quite specific to the platform that was used, and won't be ideal or won't be active anymore with the new hardware. What's more, with the 12th gen Alder Lake CPUs, they contain a so-called Thread Director, which relies on Windows 11 to provide proper scheduling to the appropriate cores. This all leads to the outcome that entirely new hardware might not work in the optimal way when you just try to re-use your existing Windows. On Intel, anything further than a one-platform-gap (say, from Z390 to Z590) usually warrants a fresh install. I personally always do a fresh install with a new board+CPU, even when i just go to the very next platform.

Then, once Windows is installed, i install the drivers in this order: Always Intel Chipset driver first, then Serial I/O and Management Engine (all from MSI support site). Then Intel LAN (Wired driver x64), WLAN (Driver64), BT drivers, then perhaps AMD/NVIDIA graphics driver from them, as well as Realtek audio driver from MSI. By that time you should be online and Windows Update can do the rest.


***I do see in MSI CENTER / LIVE UPDATE that it is advising me that I should update all those drivers you have mentioned. That being said, if I just install them to the current build will they in essence just install correctly and REPLACE the old drivers from the original build? If so, is there follow up that I'd need to do with regard to getting rid of the old drivers completely?***



About your 12900K, that is a very extreme CPU. Today's higher CPU models are as if Intel "stock-overclocked" them, meaning, Intel went above the point they should've gone on the voltage-per-frequency curve, in order to beat AMD in certain benchmarks. They exploited all the frequency potential and then some. So you can't really overclock them either. Not only that, even at stock settings they can cause a big headache for your cooling.

So not only is there no headroom anymore, but the higher you go in the model range, they already behave like overclocked CPUs, with increased power consumption and lowered efficiency (even if you don't change any setting at all). This goes so far that lowering the power limits - in other words, restricting the power draw - can regain some lost efficiency (or make it even possible to cool the CPU in the first place): https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-i9-12900k-alder-lake-tested-at-various-power-limits/

It also helps to explain why the new top model 12900KS is such a power-hungry beast, has such bad efficiency as a result, and very bad price/performance to boot:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-i9-12900ks/23.html
They allow the KS to draw way much power for a laughably small performance increase, just to keep the "fastest gaming CPU" crown. So this is the end product of the tendency during the last couple CPU generations of clocking the higher CPU models more and more aggressively, to exploit every last bit of performance that can be squeezed out of them. If the 12900K was already using brute force, then the KS uses sheer violence.

That development is why, even on a 12700K, let alone a 12900K, you can't substantially overclock anymore, unless you're willing to use brute force and throw calculation efficiency right out the window. But even if you're willing to do that, the skyrocketing power consumption and limited ability in removing that heat from the tiny CPU surface will stop you before there's really any relevant payoff in performance.

Over here you can read a thread where i helped someone lower the power limits on the 11900K to get it slightly more under control (even though we didn't find the optimal point yet, because at some point he was already satisfied): https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?...ns-solid-as-a-rock.377267/page-2#post-2137563

Something very similar has to be done with your 12900K if it runs into thermal throttling. Out of the box, the BIOS may default to "Water Cooler" (power limits maxed out) or you or someone else may have selected that, since you actually have a water cooler (presumably, you don't mention your actual cooler model). But this cooler selection is just a thinly disguised way of setting the power limits. When you let a 12900K off the leash like that, even some good water coolers cannot deal with it anymore for prolonged full load like Cinebench is creating.

In the link about the power limits, you will see that you can gain a lot of efficiency by lowering the limits. The CPU will spend less energy to complete a certain calculation (even though it may take slightly longer, but the performance drop is much lower than the efficiency gain), all the while staying much cooler. So in a way, you can revert the back decisions Intel made when they came up with the specs of this CPU, in that their only goal was to beat certain AMD CPUs in benchmarks, and didn't care about the efficiency. You can get it more towards Ryzen levels of efficiency.


*** I will certainly look into possibly undervolting, etc to help get temps under control. And yes, I do have an AIO. Its the Kraken x73 360 AIO***

As for hardware monitoring, they might simply read out different sensors. CPU package vs. individual core temps and so on. I swear by HWinfo64 "Sensors", you can see all the sensors at once.

If you want further help, post all your hardware in detail (including PSU and case models), and post the same HWinfo64 sensor screenshot i talk about in the thread i linked.
I can help you find the best settings for your situation.

***Man that would be fantastic. When I go home today I will run HWMonitor and post those values. In the meantime, please see below for full system specs...

NZXT H710I CASE (custom front top and side panels with hexagon cutouts for maximum airflow.

12900K

MSI 3080TI GAMING X TRIO

MSI Z690 CARBON WIFI GAM8NG MOTHERBOARD

NZXT KRAKEN X73 AIO (FRONT MOUNTED WITH FANS AS INTAKE - AGAIN, PANEL IS CUSTOM FOR AIRFLOW)

BOOT DRIVE IS SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS NVME

OTHER DRIVES - CRUCIAL 2TB 2.5 SSD AND 2TB SEAGATE HDD

PSU IS EVGA 1000W SUPERNOVA G5

Thanks for the indepth info and reply. Please see within your reply marked with *** for my follow up questions...
 
You can highlight paragraphs you'd like to quote, the forum will show "Reply" once they're highlighted, this way it's easier to reply to you again.
Because i can't quote from a quote you've written your answers into.

> ***I do see in MSI CENTER / LIVE UPDATE that it is advising me that I should update all those drivers you have mentioned. That being said, if I just install them to the current build will they in
> essence just install correctly and REPLACE the old drivers from the original build? If so, is there follow up that I'd need to do with regard to getting rid of the old drivers completely?***

You should update all those drivers, it should overwrite the old ones. Make sure not to mess around with the settings in MSI Center too much, it can really have some downsides, see here for example.

You have some nice components there, it shouldn't be too hard to get everything under control.
 
Thanks my friend... Step 1 will be to get the drivers updated and I may just do them manually from the website rather than via MSI CENTER. From there I will see about getting you that information from hw monitor so you can give me some suggestions... 👍👍👍
 
Will do my friend. Thanks again for the help!!! I will get to this tonight after work and then await your recommendations... 👍👍👍

Oh and 1 more thing... In the Power Options in Windows I am running it with Ultimate Perfomance mode. I don't know if that matters but thought I'd let you know... Should I just set this back to balanced and leave it there? I just can't stand the monitor turning off and stuff but for the sake of getting things right I'll set it back to a balanced power plan if you feel it makes sense...
 
Yes, Balanced. As i wrote in the last link, in MSI Center under Features, make sure all "Device Speed Up" is disabled, horribly bad function. Any other power plan than "Balanced" is bad, because High/Best/Ultimate Performance will artificially keep your CPU at high alert, and even cause 100% load for mundane things like copying files, which will not accelerate anything. Instead, it will just cause higher power draw and more heat, for zero performance benefits.

You can easily disable the monitor turning off in the Balanced power plan. Just select "Edit plan settings" and set "Turn off the display" to "Never".

choose-time.png
 
Yes, Balanced. As i wrote in the last link, in MSI Center under Features, make sure all "Device Speed Up" is disabled, horribly bad function. Any other power plan than "Balanced" is bad, because High/Best/Ultimate Performance will artificially keep your CPU at high alert, and even cause 100% load for mundane things like copying files, which will not accelerate anything. Instead, it will just cause higher power draw and more heat, for zero performance benefits.

You can easily disable the monitor turning off in the Balanced power plan. Just select "Edit plan settings" and set "Turn off the display" to "Never".
Ok... Thanks.

The only actual thing I have downloaded within msi center is mystic light so unless the msi center power plan thing is baked into msi center itself then I will just set the windows power plan to balanced from within windows but I will look in center to see if I can find what you're speaking of...
 
I added a screenshot of the option.
Hey man...

Ok so I installed all the drivers and everything and then followed your instructions with regard to the HWinfo64 and have attached the screenshot here. As you can see, it started thermal throtling and this was about 4 minutes into the CinebenchR23 Test. I hope I was able to capture all the info you need and I hope you can give me some advice on how to make this better.
image_2022-08-16_175928757.png
 
Ok. No need to maximize the sensor window, this just pulls the three big columns apart. Instead, you could've pulled the individual small colums a bit further apart, because some of the text there is cut off. But i can see things well enough.

So let's see. Yes, as expected, 280W pure CPU power draw, even the best water coolers will have trouble removing this amount of heat from the tiny CPU surface. Of course, once the throttling temperatures are reached, thermal throttling commences and the CPU core clocks drop. The CPU is trying to save itself by clocking lower. So letting the CPU draw however much power it wants is counterproductive: It overheats and you get a big performance hit due to throttling.

We will have to find a reasonable setting for the power limits, an amount that your cooling can comfortably deal with. I'm aiming for mid-80°C maximum, not much more.
For the CPU temperature, with a powerful water cooler and good case airflow, you generally don't want to see temperatures in the 90°C range, that's too high for my taste.

First, enter your BIOS, make sure it's in Advanced View (press F7 for that). Then go to OC - "Advanced CPU Configuration" in the BIOS and set:
"Intel C-State" to Enabled
"C1E Support" to Enabled
"Package C-State Limit" to C10 or the highest C-number there is (deepest C-State = most power saving in idle)
"Intel Speed Shift" to Enabled

Also listed there are the Long and Short Duration Power Limits. Set both to 200W.

Press F10 to save & exit, then run the Cinebench test again. First let HWinfo64 run a bit on its own to get the minimum numbers.
But update your HWinfo64 to the newest version from https://www.fosshub.com/HWiNFO.html
You are running an outdated version which does not show all sensor data from your board. I don't know where you got that old version from, i linked you the correct download site before.
Already pull the individual little colums apart a bit so all the text can be read. Then let Cinebench run and make a screenshot after 10 minutes or whenever you observe any throttling prior to that.
 
Ok. No need to maximize the sensor window, this just pulls the three big columns apart. Instead, you could've pulled the individual small colums a bit further apart, because some of the text there is cut off. But i can see things well enough.

So let's see. Yes, as expected, 280W pure CPU power draw, even the best water coolers will have trouble removing this amount of heat from the tiny CPU surface. Of course, once the throttling temperatures are reached, thermal throttling commences and the CPU core clocks drop. The CPU is trying to save itself by clocking lower. So letting the CPU draw however much power it wants is counterproductive: It overheats and you get a big performance hit due to throttling.

We will have to find a reasonable setting for the power limits, an amount that your cooling can comfortably deal with. I'm aiming for mid-80°C maximum, not much more.
For the CPU temperature, with a powerful water cooler and good case airflow, you generally don't want to see temperatures in the 90°C range, that's too high for my taste.

First, enter your BIOS, make sure it's in Advanced View (press F7 for that). Then go to OC - "Advanced CPU Configuration" in the BIOS and set:
"Intel C-State" to Enabled
"C1E Support" to Enabled
"Package C-State Limit" to C10 or the highest C-number there is (deepest C-State = most power saving in idle)
"Intel Speed Shift" to Enabled

Also listed there are the Long and Short Duration Power Limits. Set both to 200W.

Press F10 to save & exit, then run the Cinebench test again. First let HWinfo64 run a bit on its own to get the minimum numbers.
But update your HWinfo64 to the newest version from https://www.fosshub.com/HWiNFO.html
You are running an outdated version which does not show all sensor data from your board. I don't know where you got that old version from, i linked you the correct download site before.
Already pull the individual little colums apart a bit so all the text can be read. Then let Cinebench run and make a screenshot after 10 minutes or whenever you observe any throttling prior to that.

You are the man dude and I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help!!!

I'm just about to eat dinner but when done I will make those adjustments you advise of and then send you the hw results after I update the app (I had that old one on my machine previously).

Oh and I also set the power plan to balanced in windows and can't find anything in msi center that may be controlling it.

That being said however, on my aida64 panel I use still seems to show some whacky things. Even though I set the power plan to balanced and task manager reports this correctly, foe the most part, Aida is reporting my clocks at a steady 4888mhz and NZXT CAM shows it at 5Ghz ?! Cam is also not reporting the minimum clock speed for the cpu and shows as 0. Oh and aida says the cpu is a 5Ghz (total boost) part. This is why I was wondering if things can be carried over from my 9900k build but I Uninstaller and reinstalled both Aida and CAM and their results remained the same even after installing them fresh... Its so weird...

Also... The bios does show that it's set to water cooler with a maximum wattage of like 4096W?!?!?!
 
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Well, yeah, make sure you use the newest versions of everything, don't install from some old installer you have floating around. That goes for AIDA64 just as much as for HWinfo64.
AIDA64 is not necessary though if you have HWinfo64. Oh yeah, and you can expand "Core clocks" in HWinfo.
 
I tried to adjust all the settings you advised of but the PC would not boot with those settings applied(???). It froze on the boot screen 3 separate times and I had to force reboot 3 times. Not sure what's up with that but any insight or advice?

I set the bios back to optimized defaults and turned xmp and resizable bar back on and it booted without issue...
 
Well, yeah, make sure you use the newest versions of everything, don't install from some old installer you have floating around. That goes for AIDA64 just as much as for HWinfo64.
AIDA64 is not necessary though if you have HWinfo64. Oh yeah, and you can expand "Core clocks" in HWinfo.
Hey again man...

So again, I tried to adjust all the settings you advised of but the PC would not boot with those settings applied(???). It froze on the boot screen 3 separate times and I had to force reboot 3 times. Not sure what's up with that but any insight or advice?

I set the bios back to optimized defaults and turned xmp and resizable bar back on and it booted without issue...

I have to call it a night for now but if you can please advise on what may be happening I'd really appreciate it and then maybe I can try this again tomorrow...
 
Try each of the settings individually to see which one it doesn't like. Press F10 to save&exit after each one. My guess is the "Package C-State Limit" to C10, if so, leave it on Auto instead.

"Intel C-State" to Enabled
"C1E Support" to Enabled
"Package C-State Limit" to C10 or the highest C-number there is (deepest C-State = most power saving in idle)
"Intel Speed Shift" to Enabled
Long and Short Duration Power Limits to 200W.
 
Try each of the settings individually to see which one it doesn't like. Press F10 to save&exit after each one. My guess is the "Package C-State Limit" to C10, if so, leave it on Auto instead.

"Intel C-State" to Enabled
"C1E Support" to Enabled
"Package C-State Limit" to C10 or the highest C-number there is (deepest C-State = most power saving in idle)
"Intel Speed Shift" to Enabled
Long and Short Duration Power Limits to 200W.

Will do man. I will again have to do this later today / after work but I will try again - one at a time and leave the Package C State on auto and let you know how it goes... Oh and although I'm turning the long and short power limits to 200W, is there anything I should do to the actual setting in the bios
where it shows as "water cooler" or will changing the power limits settings just override that in the bios?
 
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