Z790 + 13900, constant varying issues with build?

[sparkiiro]

Good afternoon everyone!

1. Thought I'd come here to see if I can shed some insight on this as this PC was a lot of money, a lot of savings and a replacement for my og Skylake build in 2015.
2. 
   
3. CPU: Intel i-9 13900
4. MB: Z970 EDGE Wifi DDR4
   RAM: DDR4 32GB Corsair Vengeance
5. GPU: AMD Radeon RX 5600 XT
6. 
   
7. Essentially, I've had some various issues with the PC that happen daily and force me to restart. I am hoping it's not the mb as that's the hardest thing to replace, but I thought I'd share and see what you think:
8. 1. - PC will not start up fully - Windows Explorer will not initiate, Wallpaper Engine won't start (this is a big red flag for me) - have to fully shut down and start up.
   2. - PC does not display on my main monitor, but my secondary monitor works fine. Each source on my monitor cycles. Have to restart to get it working.
9. - PC is sluggish with little installed onto the system, running Win10 from a 1TB m.2 - restart works fine
10. - Does not recognise two SATA drives plugged into the mainboard (contains all my old files, slowly moving over to m.2 storage when I have funds) - have to restart
11. - Fancontrol often crashes and doesn't change fan speed on set up (I understand this is freeware and could be buggy)
12. - If left to sleep, will not operate on waking, forced to restart.
13. - Several USBs won't work.
14. - Certain low-impact software (such as Clip Studio) will be laggy, worse than on my gen 6 Intel. High impact software is a gamble, Photoshop often lags severely, but its low-impact alternatives like Affinity also struggle.
15. - Several software apps have reset their cache and preferences this week, without me doing anything. Adobe keeps signing out, Clip removed all recent files, I've been asked to confirm default applications for opening Jpegs? Strange.

Not all the above happen at once, sometimes they don't happen at all. It's often though and it's daily that at least one of these, most commonly it's the first one and the sluggish one but recently the monitor issue has arisen.

I understand that these could be individual parts and I have a sinking feeling it's Windows self-sabotaging, because when it boots up from off, it's very fast to get to my login screen, very smooth.

I did some digging and found a reddit post recommending I change the PCI-e to Gen 3 and it worked beautifully for a few days, then reverted back to its old self very quickly. It's still on Gen 3 now.

I've attached my CPU-Z text report if that's helpful too. My knowledge really stops here, so please be nice to me!

Thanks!

 

[citay]

Well, to me it sounds like you have some instability going on. This Win10, did you re-use it from your old system, or was it a fresh install?

With a 13900 and using an "old" beta BIOS, 7D91v1D2, this is living dangerously. This is a true Raptor Lake CPU, which is therefore affected by CPU degradation (which can lead to instability) when the BIOS is not updated. You must've by now heard about the CPU deterioration issues with 13th/14th gen Intel CPUs, and this v1D2 BIOS you're still on is from the very early days where this very real danger was first discovered. They had no proper countermeasures against the voltage spikes yet, so all this BIOS version implements is a couple BIOS settings which are set more strictly according to Intel recommendations.

Only the very next version, the 7D91v1D, implemented the first fix in the so-called microcode (which is where the problem was all along), but still this wasn't anywhere near sufficient. So after that came the first really important update (0x129 microcode), and then very fresh, the "final" fix for this whole issue in form of the BIOS with the 0x12B microcode. You can see it all here: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MPG-Z790-EDGE-WIFI-DDR4/support

So this is the most pressing issue here. The BIOS needs to be updated, like, yesterday. Update how-to:
1) Get the latest BIOS. It's the topmost one on the MSI support page for your board.
2) Extract the file and you will get a text file and the BIOS file. Put the BIOS file into the root folder of a USB stick/drive.
3) Enter the BIOS by pressing DEL during boot, go to "M-FLASH" in the BIOS.
4) Once M-Flash (the updater) is loaded, it will show a list of your drives. Select the USB stick and select the previously extracted BIOS file on there.
5) It will ask for confirmation and then update the BIOS. It's fully automatic from there, takes about two minutes.

Now, should your CPU actually have suffered from degradation, and this causing the instability, then this BIOS update will not fix any of that, because the damage was done. The latest BIOS (actually, the fix in the microcode) can only prevent any further degradation.

But it's also possible that your problems come from something else entirely. The non-working USB ports, that doesn't make sense to come from CPU instability. So to that end, it would be good to know all your components, to a bigger extent than that CPU-Z report.

For example, your PSU model, this can't be read out in software. You either have to look at the sticker on the side, or get the email/receipt from when you bought it all. But also, if you could download HWinfo64 and show me a screenshot of the System Summary screen, this will give some better information already.

The issue about the monitor, it might be because you still have the iGPU of the CPU active. I can tell you later how to turn it off in the BIOS and only use the graphics card.

So, let's actually do it like this, first please post the HWinfo screenshot and what PSU model you have. Heck, maybe you also want to post a photo of your system with the side panel off, sometimes something odd can be spotted there already.

Then, if i give you the preliminary green light (meaning, i don't spot a bad and/or ancient PSU and nothing else that shouldn't be), you can update the BIOS. Seeing how you have the Z790 Edge Wifi DDR4, after the BIOS update, you have to make sure to disable the ASMedia SATA chip in the BIOS, it tends to cause problems. If your SATA drives happen to be on the ports controlled by that buggy ASMedia chipset, then you have to move them to the Z790-controlled ports. Here is an overview, avoid the ports A1 and A2 (they won't work after you disable the ASMedia chip in the BIOS anyway).

Secondly, you can enable XMP for your RAM after performing the update, because according to CPU-Z, it's still on the first-boot slow speed of DDR4-2133.

I know there might be some stuff that you didn't quite understand, so we can go step by step, first provide more info and then we'll try to get to the bottom of everything.

 

[sparkiiro]

Hi Citay, thank you so so much for this, it's super helpful and yes, a bit over my head, but I really appreciate how indepth it is!

I'm really hoping it's not the case for the degradation of the CPU, it was the first thing I bought and I always like to have a heavy CPU due to video editing requirements, it's the star of my builds rather than GPU stuff, so fingers crossed nothing's damaged.

Regarding the BIOS update, funnily I did update it - it was one of the very first things I did, having built some gaming PCs for my nephews I've had this issue in the past, with AMDs especially, so I'm really shocked to hear it's that severely outdated. But I had a feeling it could have been the issue earlier.

Windows - 100% fresh installation, I even bought a new key as I haven't formatted my old PC yet, just lifted the RAM out (the main reason I'm on DDR4 here btw is because I'd upgraded my RAM in my old build only last year and didn't want to spend more if not needed - I've got a white build specifically so it seemed a waste to chuck out)

PSU is a Corsair RM750 (2021) - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B097F1NGLY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 - this one to be exact!

And thank you so much - for the life of me I can NOT figure out how to turn off the CPU graphics, I've tried everything I could think of and Google was no help. I had a feeling it was still operating over the GPU or interfering in some way, will gladly get that shut off haha. The GPU is an old one from my husband, I upgraded from my trusty old 1050TI but I'm not overly keen on this one, so I'm going to invest in something else later on. Not a huge priority right now though.

Happy to do the BIOS update in the morning, before my first Zoom call, otherwise I'll need it all day haha. I'll take a picture in the morning too, just about to head to bed and will get one in the morning for you.

Let me know if this is enough data.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the help!

 

[citay]

Regarding the BIOS update, funnily I did update it - it was one of the very first things I did, having built some gaming PCs for my nephews I've had this issue in the past, with AMDs especially, so I'm really shocked to hear it's that severely outdated. But I had a feeling it could have been the issue earlier.

To be fair, it was only severely outdated in the way that there has been considerable movement on the CPU degradation issue in the last few months, with crucial updates being supplied to the board makers by Intel (that microcode comes direct from Intel) to implement in their BIOS updates. Any other time, when there was not such an ongoing dangerous issue, i would not call such a version severely outdated, as it's only four months old. But these last four months have brought along two important microcode updates, 0x129 and 0x12B.

And as i type this and look at your board's support site again, they just released the very latest update against this issue, containing the 0x12B microcode, which Intel touts as the final fix for it. So you are lucky, once you update to this (and set some other things properly in the BIOS), you should be good for quite a while (hopefully).

PSU is a Corsair RM750 (2021)

Pretty good model, no cause for concern there.

And thank you so much - for the life of me I can NOT figure out how to turn off the CPU graphics, I've tried everything I could think of and Google was no help.

It's a bit counter-intuitive, not easy to spot on your own. In the BIOS in advanced view (press F7), you set "IGD Multi-Monitor" to [Disabled] here:

And of course, under Settings\Advanced\Integrated Peripherals, i highly recommend to disable the extra ASMedia SATA controller like so:

Then, if you don't use WLAN/WIFI, you can also set "Onboard CNVi module" to [Disabled].

As for the RAM, you just have to enable XMP in the BIOS, it's on the top left. Because if you look here:

On the three red boxes i added, the topmost one shows your current RAM clock (frequency), this is 1066 MHz or thereabouts (it's never 100% exact), times two because of DDR = Double Data Rate, we arrive at a lowly DDR4-2133. But further below, at "Type", we see that your RAM really wants to run at DDR4-3200, which would have significantly better performance. And the bottom box shows it has a 1600 MHz XMP (Xtreme Memory Profile), for this exact DDR4-3200 speed. But it won't become active until you activate it in the BIOS.

So that's the main goal now, updating the BIOS and then doing certain settings. This guide might also be useful: Guide: How to set good power limits in the BIOS and reduce the CPU power draw. For example it shows what screen you will first see after the BIOS update, the cooler selection screen. Usually you can select the middle option. If you have time for it, you can go by the things i mention in the guide. But i didn't want to bombard you with all the information at once.

And like i said, if you have a photo of your system with the side panel off, that might give additional hints. I'll be pretty busy tomorrow, i hope you have enough things to take care of that i won't be immediately needed again, but i will get notified of further replies and will add my reply to that eventually.

 

[sparkiiro]

Hi!

Thought I'd come back and thank you! and share a photo (please don't judge, I've always wanted a very extra looking PC, hence the HYTE case, the custom fan covers and the AIO cooler! It started up a lot smoother, not necessarily faster? It's hard to explain but essentially everything launched as it should, no needing to restart at all, in fact Fan Control worked before I even logged in!

BIOS flashed, updated fully and also changed the RAM to XMP. Disabled the Intel CPU graphics and the SATAs, which were probably 100% accurately diagnosed as my two drives aren't working now (as in I can't access them) - they were both acting up so they must be in the A slots. I'll drag my PC out tomorrow and move them.
I kept the Wifi on just because it's my backup, as its also my day job PC I can tether off my phone for wifi if I lose internet

On the power limiting, I selected the MSI performance option as you suggested, but it gave me a warning of invalidating my warranty - is that something that flagged for anyone else do you know? I took a quick look through your guide but might have missed it. Unsure if it means my CPU warranty or my MB haha.

Thank you!

 

[citay]

Hey, i'm rarely judging the looks of people's PC, i just try to give hints about how to improve things, should i see something
You could have it devil-themed with 666 everywhere, i wouldn't mind it. I mostly care about the technical side of things.

For you, about your radiator, i don't know if it was possible or not, but mounting it with the tubes on the bottom would've been better. Tubes on top can lead to unwanted noises like gurgling and trickling, as the air bubbles (which are present in any loop) collect on the highest point of the loop. Usually it's best if the highest point is just the "dead end" of the radiator, instead of the "business end". But if you don't have any issues from this, it's ok.

As for the fans, what i assume to be Pokémon characters in front of two of them, if this is solid material, this is bad for the fan performance. You could put those things anywhere BUT in front of the fans. It's a bit like decorating your speakers by hanging things right in front of them. You don't want to make things potentially take a serious performance hit just because it looks nicer.

Then, the fans, unless these are ones with reversible blades, you seem to purposely have created a back-to-front airflow, which is unusual? Any additional fans that we can't see (there seem to be some on top?). But yeah, back-to-front, you don't see this often. That's not to say it can't work well.

BIOS updated, very good, XMP activated and all the other settings, very good. About the power limits, it's probably because you have a 13900 (non-K), which by default wants to work with a 219W Short Duration power limit aka MTP (Maximum Turbo Power), and then a 65W (!) Long Duration power limit aka TDP. Only when you strictly set the power limits to those official numbers (in other words, selecting "Boxed cooler" - now renamed to "Intel Default Settings" on the cooler selection prompt, which is really the power limits prompt), then you will have the power draw that Intel states for it.

But then the performance also is severely limited by it. Because remember, the TDP is only 65W (with a whopping 219W MTP as per Intel spec)! This means, it will draw the MTP for half a minute, then it gets brutally limited to 65W power draw, which means it would have to drastically lower the clocks to stay within that limit, perhaps right down to the 2.0 GHz base clock (for the P-cores). You can imagine what kind of performance you get at 2.0 GHz vs. the up to 5.6 GHz maximum turbo clocks this CPU model can achieve. So nobody in their right mind restricts it to 65W after half a minute, unless it runs in an office PC or cheap OEM system. There, they use a cheap cooling solution and have to keep the temperatures and noise under control somehow, that's why they use this CPU model, so they can run it completely in spec and not worry about it overheating. But in a normal PC you build yourself, with an AIO cooler, you want to allow at least 150-200W or so indefinitely to have a proper performance from this CPU.

So the best thing to do is to set the power limits yourself, according to what your cooling can actually handle. I have described the entire procedure in the guide i linked before. First you'd set power limits roughly according to what you think your cooling can get rid of, even with long periods of full load. I don't know how capable your cooling is, maybe it can get rid of 180-200W while still keeping the CPU temperature within the 80°C range. Then you'd set that as a power limit in the BIOS, and check the resulting temperatures with Cinebench, which creates fully multithreaded load. If they're mid-80°C, perfect. Above 90°C, you have to reduce the limits, below 80°C you can raise them if you want, of course it also depends on the noise you want to tolerate, that has to do with the fan curves. I recommend the highest point of the curve (full fan speeds) at 85° or 90°C. I would try to stay away from the 90°C range, that slowly enters thermal throttling territory, it is not good to rely on that, and you want to have some headroom for higher ambient temperatures.

So why did we select the middle option, MSI Performance, on the power limits selection prompt? Just to have a good baseline we can tweak from. The first setting is too restrictive with this CPU model, since it would limit it to 65W eventually and castrate the performance after half a minute of load. The last setting just maxes things out, this is no good either. The middle setting is a good starting point to work off of. Don't worry about the warranty prompt, it's just MSI trying to cover their bases. This CPU actually has extended warranty now, because it's confirmed as being affected by the voltage spike problems in the older microcode (which are now prevented with the updated microcode in the new BIOS you flashed).

Then, to reduce the CPU's power draw in all load states, you can work with CPU Lite Load. Again, i explain that in the thread in step 2). No need to change the power limits from what you determined though, because those limits only have to do with your cooling capabilities, they don't change once you determined what your cooling can handle. But when you make the CPU draw a bit less power, it will throttle a bit less under full load when it hits the power limits, and it can thus boost the clocks higher.

If your head is spinning now, then just do the following: In my guide, i describe how to run HWinfo Sensors, doing a Cinebench R23 run, and then taking a screenshot of the maximized sensor window (and note the Cinebench score). Do this and post the screenshot here, i'll tell you what you could try for your system.

 

[citay]

Oh, and one other thing: Your 1 TB hard drive is showing a warning/error, in the bottom right of the System Summary of HWinfo. Something might be the issue with it.

To find out what, you can read out the so-called SMART data of that drive with CrystalDiskInfo. In the program's menu under "Function" -> Advanced Feature -> Raw Values, select "10 [DEC]" to have human-readable values, and you can press CTRL-S to save a screenshot. Let's see what the warning is about.

 

[citay]

Hopefully i didn't scare you away with too detailed posts you didn't understand... I like to give detailed technical feedback, it's just a shame when i never hear back again.