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Author Topic: Powersupply calculation....  (Read 74469 times)

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Powersupply calculation....
« on: 25-July-02, 02:04:28 »

Hi there,

To give a better guide on powersupplies.....

Modern AMD CPU's (XP) need about 180W on the combined 3.3+5V power lines....
Check the label on this.....
If it doesn't list the combined wattage, you can try this (refined) calculation:

((5VxAMP's+3.3VxAMP's)/3)x2=approx the wattage for most powersupplies.....

Eg.  

You have a PSU that does:

5V 20A
3.3V 15A

It will do about:

5x20=100
3.3x15=49.5
100+49.5=149.5
149.5/3=49.9
49.9x2=99.8Watt's combined

Be aware, this is only an example.....
It can give only an estimate on most PSU's....Cheap ones, there are far better......and this is the calculation for the worst type's :P

You better check the label for the exact combined power...

The best rule to stick by is 180W combined for a XP-1700 under normal conditions.....
200W or above for the same system with a GF4Tixxxx or simular card....
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Scirocco

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« Reply #1 on: 26-July-02, 04:54:19 »

thanks for the general formula Bas.
Have your morning coffee or beer in the afternoon?
 :D  :]
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r@id

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« Reply #2 on: 26-July-02, 21:22:01 »

I have no broblem running my computer with a "small but damn enough" power supply...

I also have 3 case fan running @ 7v and 3 other small fans (chipset+video+cpu)

2 cd roms and 2 HD...

I'm running a computer not a powerplant...! :)

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« Reply #3 on: 26-July-02, 23:18:54 »

Hi,

Harddisk's, Cdroms, CDwriters and fan's are not the stuff that take much power.....
They take most from the 12V line....and that one has plenty power on most PSU's.....

The really powerhungry stuff on 3.3+5V are:

CPU (XP-1800 about 80W at full load!)
Motherboard (depends on the board and features)
Ram (estimated at 10W per 256MB no matter the load)
Videocard (GF4Ti a lot, but close to the CPU! when full load)

So you see, 180W combined isn't really that much....
And you know why underpowered systems crash when playing games......
As at idle, they don't take that much......

12V even when you have only 10A is allready 120W....
Get the picture there???? :]

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lnpuco

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« Reply #4 on: 27-July-02, 13:33:00 »

I am running an AOpen 300wps, Large Mid-Tower, with an MSI KT333 ARU, 1800+, 768 DDR Micron, MSI G4 MX440, Dual Maxtor ATA-133 7200 rpm drives, Acer 56x CDR, LiteOn 16X48 DVD, LiteOn 40x12x48 CDRW, 1.44FDD, Iomega 100 ide zip, AOpen 56k Modem, AOpen 10/100 NIC, etc, etc, and WinXP Pro as far as the op. and no power supply problems, and that includes 5 8x8 case fans....just some notes for the crowd...later  
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Mankou

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« Reply #5 on: 27-July-02, 17:49:07 »

I ordered a 1800XP and a GeForce4 Ti4200 for my K7T Turbo. There are also 2 IDE drives, 2 HDs, 2 PCI cards, an extra case fan. My PSU is an old generic 230W. GOD HELP ME! 8o
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« Reply #6 on: 28-July-02, 00:50:00 »

Hi Mankou,

You better get a bigger PSU.......it won't handle it at all :]
If it will even start (doubt it very much), you will run into trouble when you put some serious load on it....
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WaltC

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Here's a good link...
« Reply #7 on: 28-July-02, 18:57:58 »

...to a chart which will help you to figure your power supply needs:

http://www.pcpowercooling.com/maxpc/index_cases.htm

While you're there, be sure and read the other very interesting power supply articles on the site.  This is the best PSU info I've seen.

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« Reply #8 on: 29-July-02, 02:05:50 »

Hi,

I have seen that link before, although not accurate anymore it a good guide on the wattages.....
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« Reply #9 on: 03-August-02, 19:16:54 »

I've been having trouble running a Mushkin 512M PC2700 module. My computer runs fine with the 256M PC2700. It has been suggested I replace the Antec 300W PS with a larger one. Mushkin support thought 300W should be enough but I have ordered a 500W PS replacement just to be sure I have enough power. What do you think?
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« Reply #10 on: 03-August-02, 19:29:52 »

I am in the process of putting together a computer for the first time and the motherboard that I like is the KT3Ultra.  My question is, in looking for a case, I don't know if the connectors from the power supply are universal between AMD motherboards and Intel motherboards.  Can anyone tell me what to look for?  The case I was looking at is the Antec SX630.  Thanks in advance for your help :]
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Snead

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« Reply #11 on: 03-August-02, 19:38:09 »

emh125...
no problem, I am running the KT3 in an Antec 830.
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tweetyoost

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« Reply #12 on: 05-August-02, 10:27:58 »

a chieftec 340W so that be enough
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tweetyoost

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« Reply #13 on: 05-August-02, 12:59:08 »

or what you think of that macron 400w psu
http://www.computer3g.com/macatxinamdr.html
i gonna buy such psu
ps: where is ralcan works his pc now or not
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tweetyoost

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« Reply #14 on: 05-August-02, 13:28:30 »

I just bought a 400w psu of Q-tec
http://www.qtec.info/products/product.htm?artnr=13023
what you think of it that must work i hope :P
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #15 on: 05-August-02, 13:29:07 »

tweety if you use the formula

and if ive done my sums right that psu still only gives 166 watts cmbined

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« Reply #16 on: 05-August-02, 13:52:55 »

darn,i only got 164watts out of my so called 400watts p4 power supply,and i'm running XP@1630 wif vcore 1.7v ,sdram based mobo wif gf2,dvd,7200rpm drives and audigy..is that enuf?????
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #17 on: 05-August-02, 14:16:30 »

the calculation is only a guide

the sums do not work on an antec true power as it has totally independant 5v and 3.3 v rails but its the only one i have found to date to be like that

the best thing to look at is the quoted combined figure

if they dont quote it appears to me they are normally of inferior quality and a good guide in the main to avoiding them in the first place

if your pc works with what you have fine

but if you get odd lock ups and other strange behavior
then you have an idea as to what may be causing it
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« Reply #18 on: 05-August-02, 14:27:14 »

hehe...mmm..guess i don hav any probs now...my sys is stable :) even my 5v reads 4.83v somtimes
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tweetyoost

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« Reply #19 on: 06-August-02, 19:50:30 »

tomorrow i have  something better a 550w psu  :P
that should to i think :D
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WarLord

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« Reply #20 on: 10-October-02, 23:32:10 »

I have a TTGI 320w 3.3c 5.0v combined is 180w running a XP1800 768mb of PC2100 G4ti4400 D740x 60g Maxtor 16x10x40 cdr SBive Run the :censored: out of it and no problems. i suppose when i upgrade i'll need a new one 8o thanx for the info Bas :]  
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quality does matter
« Reply #21 on: 12-October-02, 22:07:56 »

This is funny, 1 month ago I bought a Netserver from IBM. The big one (10 000$).

2cpu (pIII 1.2 gig, 2gig ecc ram,, 2 nic, scsi controler and 5 hd, video and all other stuff , big Loud fans,

and a redundant FAT [size=15]200w [/SIZE]    power supply!!!!!

anyway, quality  is a bigger factor than raw power....

I'm buying soon the xpc ss51g with a small 200w power supply and

running ok with 2 hd, ati9700, audigy, p4 2.4 , i gig mem,

thanks! :]

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« Reply #22 on: 07-November-02, 20:09:30 »

I have a p4 1.53 ghz . on power supplys you talk about amd how abou p4 is a 340 watt enlight ok for a p4
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #23 on: 07-November-02, 20:28:21 »

calculations the same,p4 draws a bit less juice but i would still look to get 180 watts combined or 200 for a gf4 system myself
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« Reply #24 on: 07-November-02, 20:34:27 »

ok thank you very much
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thinker

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« Reply #25 on: 18-November-02, 10:19:10 »

I'm running a enermax 330watt psu. Everything seems to run fine for me. I have a 400watt in the closet that I'll probably use when I upgrade  :)
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #26 on: 01-December-02, 15:15:52 »

from pc answers xmas 2002 issue       typical pc with gf4

p4,athlon                  65-75watts                        75

motherboard            20-30watts                         30

graphics card          15-100watts                       100

7200drive                     30 watts        x2             60

ram per 128mb             10watts        x4              40

cdrom                            25watts                         25

dvdrom/writter              30watts                         30

sound card                5-10watts                          10

floppy/pcicard                 5watts                          10

zip drive                        10watts                          -

networkcard                   5watts                           5


                                                        TOTAL       385watts

so add a bit for upgrades and get that 430 antec
   
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« Reply #27 on: 02-December-02, 02:27:52 »

I did your calculations, but I did not come up with the same as my power supply says. I have a Raidmax 350w powersupply that I had replaced with a Antec PSU. Using the chart on the side of the Raidmax PSU, they come up with 178w combined. With your calculation I only came u with 118?

3.3v=16A 52.8
+5=25A 125
125+52.8=177.8
177.8/3=59.2666
59.2666*2=118.5333
So what have I done wrong in this calculation?
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #28 on: 02-December-02, 03:21:35 »

if the raid max is worked the same way as the antec true power it would be correct,i do not know if it is
up to now the true power has been unique in having 3 seperate power rails and not getting 3.3 current from 5 v rail as most power supplies do

here is a review of a much later 400 watt only claims 180 watt combined so i think some things wrong there
as its amps are double for 3.3 and greater for 5 v

http://www.pcabusers.com/reviews/raidmax400w/p2.html

you have to divide calculated by 3 and times by 2 to get an approximate combined
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« Reply #29 on: 02-December-02, 09:02:50 »

I have looked at a lot of PSU's and used the calculation
and there not too many PSU's that qualify for 200w
combined manufactors say they do but calculation's
say they don't. ?????????? ?(
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+12V 20A = 220W, Win XPro SP 2, DSL....

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« Reply #30 on: 02-December-02, 09:15:05 »

if they say they do then you have to accept it,its a basic formula to find something that need to be measured to get properley
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« Reply #31 on: 04-February-03, 21:45:39 »

                             Tigerpro TP-420 420W
http://mixpc.zoovy.com/product/PS_TP4420

I ordered this one for $35 and free shipping.

It has +3.3=28A
           +5 =40A

So with wonkanoby's formula =194.93W

Is this a good deal or what  :]
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #32 on: 04-February-03, 22:16:33 »

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« Reply #33 on: 24-February-03, 15:32:22 »

I wonder doest -12, -5V imoportant how many Amps it is.
I saw some PSU with like .3A
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« Reply #34 on: 24-February-03, 15:38:11 »

Quote
Originally posted by diabllo
                             Tigerpro TP-420 420W
http://mixpc.zoovy.com/product/PS_TP4420

I ordered this one for $35 and free shipping.

It has +3.3=28A
           +5 =40A

So with wonkanoby's formula =194.93W

Is this a good deal or what  :]


Interesting that by label this PSU said 245W output on +5 and 3.3..

MY PSU (450W) said 260W output but
my 3.3 and 5 have lover Amps out..
by wonkanoby's formula 175

Therefore may be all PSU that build in are different.. some of them might share Amps one way or another..
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« Reply #35 on: 24-February-03, 15:51:45 »

Hi,

It's my formula :D
And it's only meant for PSU (cheap ones) that don't mention any of this stuff on the label.....
It's not a rule!!!!
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #36 on: 24-February-03, 15:54:42 »

if you read the other psu thread i initially held with another formula all the 5v watts plus 1/2 the 3.3v watts

in this case that formula works better for your psu

as it says all the way through this if it says more you have to trust them

if it says bugger all formula here,which is bas,s not mine gives worse case normally and no benefit of the dout
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« Reply #37 on: 24-February-03, 16:55:38 »

I understand it's jut like show you the point of view how to choose PSU.
However I am curious person and try look at diferent angel.
Most people stear at one point like here it's the Amps how ever if some people start running just for amps not stable Voltage (noise) and possible shared voltage/Amps (like +5 volts come from 12V "limited resiter from 12 volt that will decrease it to 5")
I hope I am not rude nor pain in the butt :) If I am then I am sorry.
PS I guess good PSU is one that hopefully contain (enoguth amps (Watts), Low noise, Impitance (Resistance between like +5V and Ground)
I noticed all topics on PSU here is related to Watts and Ampers and leave other important stuff somewhere behind.

PSS I just wanna know as much as possible (about PC PSU)
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #38 on: 24-February-03, 17:03:35 »

like most things you get what you pay for

buy a 550 antec or its enermax equivilent and never worry again
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« Reply #39 on: 24-February-03, 17:15:11 »

Quote
Originally posted by Bas
Hi,

It's my formula :D
And it's only meant for PSU (cheap ones) that don't mention any of this stuff on the label.....
It's not a rule!!!!


Sowwy that i said it's uhmm others guy forumla.
I just beleve all companies would lie and trick you by saing that their PSU cheap and best (I don't belive that good quality items could be sold cheap)
like that link for PSu for 35$ outbit everyting (if you look at lablel) higher amsp everwhere and they said it's 420W PSU my is 450W and I have everything lover (except 1) lower..
here pics..

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FireFlyPower

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« Reply #40 on: 24-February-03, 17:17:13 »

Quote
Originally posted by wonkanoby
like most things you get what you pay for

buy a 550 antec or its enermax equivilent and never worry again


heh another time when i get new job (company go poof)
I need more info becosue in future I wanna build P4 system.
PS the antec company have pretty good tech data on their PSU
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« Reply #41 on: 24-February-03, 17:34:07 »

take no notice of peak amps or watts ,they are what it can do for a second not all day long

for them using that alone i would avoid the second one
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« Reply #42 on: 24-February-03, 17:42:48 »

Quote
Originally posted by wonkanoby
take no notice of peak amps or watts ,they are what it can do for a second not all day long

for them using that alone i would avoid the second one


I bit confused what you exseactly mean by "i would avoid the second one"
do you mean like you would avoid to have PSU (PCMCIS) the like 2nd picture i posted and would prefer have the first one (TigerPro)
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #43 on: 24-February-03, 17:47:39 »

yes i do ,makers that still quote peak amps are trying to fool people as far as im concerned
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« Reply #44 on: 24-February-03, 19:28:58 »

Hi,

My turn now..... :D
We are talking switching powersupplies here.......
I created a formula that combines the 3.3+5V and you take 2/3 of the wattage it gives as a number....
This was meant only to give a guide on cheap PSU's that doesn't mention anything on the label at all....
Nothing more then a guide....
BUT!!!!!!! here it comes!!!!

You can't just say I want to use a 1000W PSU that will be best, it doesn't work that way......
As it will fail just as bad....!
Switching PSU's have a min and max load to be stable.....
My calc is only a guide to find a good PSU that handle both, between min and max load.....
Because if you are below the minimum load it can get as unstable as if you get over the top....
That is why a decent PSU gives numbers like this:

3.3 2-28A
5 1-15A

It means your load has to stay between all off them to be stable....
More watts doesn't mean a more stable system.....
The middle rule between the numbers is the best!
Checking the label for the numbers is better then using my rule in any case.....!!!!
It's guide, no more or less.....
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« Reply #45 on: 24-February-03, 19:38:33 »

Thanks BAS  :D
I'll keep in mind.
PS make another guide on choosing good makers of PSU for pc  :))
PSS I am done with that topic (I got enough info)
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Wedlock

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« Reply #46 on: 24-February-03, 23:32:38 »


Does anyone have an idea, or knows an URL, where I could find the combined wattage for the q-tec 550W dual fan?

I'm thinking about buying one of those, but I don't know its combined load.. ;)

-w
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FireFlyPower

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« Reply #47 on: 24-February-03, 23:53:32 »

specs for this power supply i belive is:


AC           PEAK    MAX
+5v     =  40A      35A
+3.3    =  30A      20A
3.3+5=285W

+12     =  20A      14A --240W
-12      =  1.0A     0.5A--5W
-5        =  1.0A     0.5A--12W
+5VSB =  3A        n/a--n/a
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« Reply #48 on: 24-February-03, 23:53:34 »

here is ther site  http://www.qtec.info/products/pgroup.htm?mpg=PSU
but as you can see they list no specs there..........I would not buy any power supply from a company that does not posts its specs........dont care if it is gold plated or not.....

Get an Antec
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #49 on: 25-February-03, 01:40:57 »

got one in my kids box

dont accept is a 550 watt as they quote all this peak crap

but it runs 4 drives a gf4600 and xp 1800
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diabllo

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« Reply #50 on: 25-February-03, 01:57:46 »

I didn't thought this thread will go on for so long, anyhow what do you think of this then?
http://www.pimprig.com/modules.php?s=&name=Sections&sop=viewarticle&artid=107


 :O  :O  :O  ?(  ;)


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Wedlock

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« Reply #51 on: 25-February-03, 03:06:32 »

Is anyone using the Super Flower PSU's?  They are a bit cheaper, than the most known top PSU's, but according to http://dansdata.com/sfpsu.htm, they can cope with the load.

any experiences?

-w

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« Reply #52 on: 25-February-03, 03:11:42 »

your links no good im afraid

on the whole i do trust dans opinions on stuff though
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« Reply #53 on: 25-February-03, 05:28:30 »

Hi,

I consider Q-tec crap, their 550W doesn't do anything near that number....
They are crap in a chiney box :D
Even most cheap 350-400W's can do what they do :D
Decend PSU's are:

Enermax
Powerman
Zeck
AOpen
Antec

There are many more.....allway's check the Max numbers total power like 550W or so don't say anything at all, for all I care, it can be just a model number :D

PEAK numbers are bogus, max is the number you want as it tells you the max continue load......
Those numbers are important.....
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Wedlock

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« Reply #54 on: 25-February-03, 07:01:36 »


I see you don't mention Super flower.. =)

-w
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« Reply #55 on: 25-February-03, 07:20:23 »

Hi,

Just checked their website, and their numbers look fine to me.....
Their 320W does what could be expect from a decend 320W.....
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FireFlyPower

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« Reply #56 on: 25-February-03, 07:59:51 »

Hi..
it's me again  :))
Now I look at some PSU and as my slef question
what good specs should be on a 450W psu
the combinet power of 3.3+5= XXX-XXX Watts
wonder what good range should be here.
Anothe one is it posibble to have too much power out of those 2 important Voltages.
like PSU 300W 3.3+5=380W and  like everything else 20W (whitch i think probably bad)
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« Reply #57 on: 25-February-03, 08:15:24 »

Hi,

Well it doesn't work that way....
The 3.3+5V combined gives the maximum power those two rails can do.....
As these rails are moslty taken off the same circuit inside...
Like my PSU, it has 205W combined and 3.3 can max out 30A and 5V 36A but if you add those two like Q-tec does :D
It should be: 30*3.3=99 and 5*36=180 you would get 279W, but the rails can't do that, not even an Antec Truepower, but that one gets close to it :D
But the ampere numbers give a good idea of what it can do on it's own....
So it can max 205 on those two, and the rest is left for the other lines....
That's only 12V mostly still more then 150W.....
You can forget about 5VStandby......a few watt is enough...
The -5V and -12V are hardly used on modern boards, only for serial ports, but they don't take much....
The biggest users of the PSU are on the 3.3+5+12 lines where 3.3+5V are the most used for allmost all logic...
12V is mainly used to feed the CPU, motors and fans....

Do I still make sense???? :D
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #58 on: 25-February-03, 08:15:53 »

lifes a balance and so must a psu be

thats why some with only 14a 3.3v are no good despite being over 400 watt rated

you should see 200 plus combined on any 450 watt overall probabley nearer 220 watts
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FireFlyPower

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« Reply #59 on: 25-February-03, 08:27:18 »

Now i feel like a pro with that PSU stuff :)
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CODY_2

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calculating
« Reply #60 on: 25-February-03, 09:08:53 »

i dont understand what means this calculating numbers, so can anyone here look on my sys, and write here how much wats uses my PC at fully load ??????

dont have modem, LAN. :rolleyes:
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« Reply #61 on: 25-February-03, 12:10:55 »

Quote
Originally posted by r@id
I have no broblem running my computer with a "small but damn enough" power supply...

I also have 3 case fan running @ 7v and 3 other small fans (chipset+video+cpu)

2 cd roms and 2 HD...

I'm running a computer not a powerplant...! :)




I agree, I am running a simple but effiecent 300W/180 combined PSU and it holds its own very well. I use MBM5 and it has yet to drop below 5.0v or 3.25 and other than a few extra case fans (haven't installed them yet) I have allot running.
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MSI K9N4 Ultra-F
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Thermaltake CL-P0114 120mm CPU Cooler - Retail
Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-500 ATX12V 500W

+5V  +12V1 +12V2 +3.3V -12V +5Vsb
 35A    17A     19A     32A  0.3A  2.0A
 
MSI 8600 GTS Graphics Card
2 x 1 gig PC5300 (corsair VS)
Hitachi 160 gig Sata HDD
IBM Dekstar 7200 HDD, 80 gig
CL Audigy Sound Card
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« Reply #62 on: 25-February-03, 12:11:50 »

Hi Cody,

Any powersupply that does the following or better would do just fine:

3.3V 30A Max or more
5V 36A Max or more
12V 16A Max or more

If you find those numbers on the PSU, you should be fine...
Also check if something like 3.3+5V=200W listed on it, anything at 200W or above is ok....

Normally you find these numbers on a decent 300-350W powersupply....
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CODY_2

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thanks
« Reply #63 on: 26-February-03, 08:47:32 »

i look into my PC:
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oldlady

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Power supply
« Reply #64 on: 04-April-03, 16:17:08 »

Hi Bas. I'm communicating with you on another thread but decided to read other things. I used the formula and MY POWMAX LP 8800C PSU rated at 350W, by your formula figures 164 for MS 6378 running ATHlon 1700+, 256M SDram 133 Kingston ValueRam, WD Protege 20 M hard drive,  Liteon DVD-ROM Model 163 (which is tested for this board) and a Phoebe (Intel ) Soft modem.
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DaFoot

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« Reply #65 on: 05-April-03, 12:32:28 »

Hey tweetyoost,
I use the  Macron MPT-400.  I this it is a good power supply execpt for it does not have much air intake space on it.
So I cut a hole big enough on the top and added a 80mm fan on it to help cool the power supply. :evil:
It works better now.
Oh and mine looks nothing like that picture, I must have and older one.   ?(
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twohype

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« Reply #66 on: 11-April-03, 10:35:46 »

Thanks for the info :D
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Primary HD - Raid 0 (2 * WD Raptor 74g)
680 watt "Thermaltake Purepower" Power Supply
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Retaliation

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« Reply #67 on: 05-January-04, 23:43:04 »

hmmm...good topic...can someone with more knowedge then i let me know(based on what my specs show) if im getting anywhere close to capping my power supplies limit? Everythings running ok...but everytime i add a piece of hardwear i ask myself"how much more can my ps take" i also have 2x 120 mm case fans thx :)
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #68 on: 06-January-04, 02:13:30 »

your not likley to evan get close to over loading it with that
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Retaliation

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« Reply #69 on: 06-January-04, 08:18:42 »

Thx again sir :)
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REILLY875

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« Reply #70 on: 07-January-04, 19:06:21 »

You can also use this "Retaliation">>>>>  http://www.adecy.com/psu/   As this is a Very Good Program, and this Guy put a lot of work into it :biggthumbsup:...We can all thank "Danny" for finding this one :-D)........Sean REILLY875
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PRIMARY SYSTEM

ALIENWARE- AREA-51-ALX
 EVGA-680i (ALIENWARE-REV.-D)
 INTEL ENTREME-9650-45NM QUAD CORE (12MB L2) 3.0GHZ @4.0GH
    (Requires The "P32" BIOS In Order To Run ANY PENRYN CPU)
 OEM THEMOCOOL-PANAFLOW HIGH PERFORMANCE LIQUID COOLING
 2 X 1GB PATRIOT LL6400                    
 2 X EVGA 8800(BLACK-PEARL) LIQUID COOLED-ULTRAS 650MHZ/1100MHZ MEM.
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 2 X WD 160GB RAPTORS IN RAID-0
 2 X WD 1 TB 7200-RPM IN RAID-1
  CREATIVE X-FI-HENDRIXS
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 1 PCPAC 1KW POWESUPPLY
  "CRAPPY" WINDOWS VISTA> "VISTAKE"!!!!
  3DMARK-2006=18,640

Retaliation

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« Reply #71 on: 07-January-04, 23:06:43 »

Thank You sir :)
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« Reply #72 on: 08-January-04, 15:50:47 »

Sorry guy's it's not good enough for modern boards....
Keep just this in mind for modern mobo's, any PSU with a 12V line of 24A or above should work trouble free.
Modern boards don't use 3.3+5V that extensive anymore.
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Marvel Lee

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Power Supply
« Reply #73 on: 10-January-04, 20:33:49 »

Hi all
Can anyone tell me which 2 wires on the motherboard main connector you connect together to turn PS on. (Pin number AND usual colors. Connector number are not marked...so how do you know where to start counting for pin numbers.
  Thanks in avanced guys, much appreciated......see you all later
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« Reply #74 on: 11-January-04, 03:51:05 »

read its manual what ever it happens to be seeing as you told us bugger all
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lavsmsi

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« Reply #75 on: 13-February-04, 20:06:58 »

HELLO ALL

After a little research I found a psu I am thinking on after Income Tax
What Do You think of this first find and a very unusual name to boot Am  not sure of the products history it may be good then again well maybe not!! I never heard of it myself.   :noidea:




Type: ATX
Maximum Power: 400W
Input Voltage: 115/230V
Output: +3.3V@28A,+5V@40A,-5V@0.5A,+12V@20A,-12V@0.8A,+5VSB@2.0A
MTBF: 60,000 hours normal temperature
Approvals: UL, TUV, CB & CE, FCC
Special Features: Patented 15cm fan with only 18-25dB and the most effective heat dissipation design, calming down your working environment.


Cleverpower
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Retaliation

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« Reply #76 on: 13-February-04, 20:46:05 »

how much is it? and who makes it?
you cant go wrong with an Antec PSU...mines was 85$(us) and has 80,000 hour life..and its a 480.That what i reccomend.go here..have a look http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-103-909&catalog=58&manufactory=BROWSE&depa=0 :censored:...79$!....i got robbed   :)
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Speedbuster

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MY power system
« Reply #77 on: 14-February-04, 06:39:22 »

Hi at all! :biggthumbsup:

My powersupply and consumer.

3,3V==>28A
5,0V==>52A
12V==>28A
combined power max==>500W :shocking:

P4 2.4C800@3,2
2X512MBKingston Hyper X DDR400
GeForce FX5600 128MB
DVD ROM
DVD Nec 2500
S-ATA 120GB Seagate
U-ATA 40GB Maxtor
U-ATA 10GB IBM
7 Fans
Watercooling system
USB:
Mouse+keybord
DSL-Modem
Logitech cam
Yakumo cam

I didn`t know what a power problem is X-((
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different brands of amps
« Reply #78 on: 18-March-04, 17:07:08 »

hello, there
I have brands/models some check out Output current rating Min. / Max:
      EnerMAX      EnerMAX
      EG365P-VE FCA   EG465P-VE FCA
       EG365AX-VE(W) FCA   EG465AX-VE(W) FCA
       ------------   ----------------
3.3V      0.3A / 32A       0.3A / 35A
+5V      0.3A / 32A       0.3A / 35A
+12V      1.5A / 26A       1.5A / 33A

-12V      0A / 1A          0A / 1A  
-5V      0A / 1A          0A / 1A  
+5Vsb      0.1A / 2.2A      0.1A / 2.2A  
           ------------    ------------
+3.3V & +5V    185W       200W  
TOTAL O/P      350W        460W

----------------------------------------------------
      Antec      Antec         Antec
      Truepower 430   Truepower 480         Truepower 550
 
+3.3V          0A/28.0A   0A/30A           0A/40A
+5V        0A/36A      0A/38A           0A/32A
+12V        0.8A/20A   0.8A/22A                         0.8A/24A

-12V         0A/1.0A   0A/1.0A                        0A/1.0A
-5V         0A/0.5A   0A/0.5A           0A/0.5A
+5VSB        0A/2.0A   0A/2.0A           0A/0.5A
        ---------   --------                       -----------
+5v,3.3v,12v   410max               460max                         530max                                                                                                           
 
why are them differet amps for enermax and antec? or some brands? :evil:


thanks

-----------------
my system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB
2 x 256MB DDR400 PC3200
MSI Geforce FX 5600-VTDR 128MB
WD 80GB and 120 GB IDE HDD
LG 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
US Robotic 56K v.92 PCI
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts
Sound Blaster live 5.1 card
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:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:My :-D) system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS BIOS v1.9 (not more update!) :shy:
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB:230Mhz@3.40GHZ 8-))
2 x 512MB (1 GB) DDR500 PC4000 CL=3-4-4-8-1 ~ @2.7V
ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB v4.11 @499MHZ normal (no OC') :tongue:
WD 250 GB IDE HDD and S-ATA 80 GB
Artec 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
PSU:5V~36A;3.3V~28A;12V~20A@410W
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS card-SPK 7.1 Digital

Danny

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« Reply #79 on: 18-March-04, 17:10:21 »

The Enermax is supplying more power on the +12V line, which the newer MSI boards require. The Antec is an older design for when the +5V line was more important.
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johnanna

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« Reply #80 on: 18-March-04, 17:17:49 »

which is one I real like my system of power support?
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:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:My :-D) system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS BIOS v1.9 (not more update!) :shy:
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB:230Mhz@3.40GHZ 8-))
2 x 512MB (1 GB) DDR500 PC4000 CL=3-4-4-8-1 ~ @2.7V
ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB v4.11 @499MHZ normal (no OC') :tongue:
WD 250 GB IDE HDD and S-ATA 80 GB
Artec 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
PSU:5V~36A;3.3V~28A;12V~20A@410W
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS card-SPK 7.1 Digital

Danny

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« Reply #81 on: 18-March-04, 17:33:34 »

EG465P-VE FCA
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johnanna

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« Reply #82 on: 18-March-04, 17:42:17 »

Enermax EG465P-VE FCA?! no way,but I like antec truepower 430 watts, is it will fine?



-------------------
my system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB
2 x 256MB DDR400 PC3200
MSI Geforce FX 5600-VTDR 128MB
WD 80GB and 120 GB IDE HDD
LG 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
US Robotic 56K v.92 PCI
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts
Sound Blaster live 5.1 card
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:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:My :-D) system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS BIOS v1.9 (not more update!) :shy:
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB:230Mhz@3.40GHZ 8-))
2 x 512MB (1 GB) DDR500 PC4000 CL=3-4-4-8-1 ~ @2.7V
ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB v4.11 @499MHZ normal (no OC') :tongue:
WD 250 GB IDE HDD and S-ATA 80 GB
Artec 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
PSU:5V~36A;3.3V~28A;12V~20A@410W
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS card-SPK 7.1 Digital

Danny

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« Reply #83 on: 18-March-04, 18:01:51 »

You know more than I do, so let me know how it works out for you.  :biggthumbsup:
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johnanna

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« Reply #84 on: 18-March-04, 18:24:18 »

I don't know how it work for me.....:-((, i'm first time this one power support calculation..... :undecided:,

i have I did tried found many website page of PSU calculator, so I don't litte understand how to do that, I don't remember that

anyone help me, I have how do I do math of power supply calculator? don't you secret me, trust me! (note: no link web) :cry:
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
 
+3.3V     0A/28.0A
+5V      0A/36A
+12V      0.8A/20A

-12V      0A/1.0A
-5V      0A/0.5A
+5VSB     0A/2.0A



thank you

-------------------
my system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB
2 x 256MB DDR400 PC3200
MSI Geforce FX 5600-VTDR 128MB
WD 80GB and 120 GB IDE HDD
LG 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
US Robotic 56K v.92 PCI
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts
Sound Blaster live 5.1 card
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:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:My :-D) system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS BIOS v1.9 (not more update!) :shy:
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB:230Mhz@3.40GHZ 8-))
2 x 512MB (1 GB) DDR500 PC4000 CL=3-4-4-8-1 ~ @2.7V
ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB v4.11 @499MHZ normal (no OC') :tongue:
WD 250 GB IDE HDD and S-ATA 80 GB
Artec 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
PSU:5V~36A;3.3V~28A;12V~20A@410W
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS card-SPK 7.1 Digital

Danny

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« Reply #85 on: 18-March-04, 18:40:22 »

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. If you want a power supply calculator, try the one in my signature.

For you hardware it gives:

Recommended PSU: 306W (99W on +3.3v & +5v rails) for:
-1 x Motherboard without onboard devices
-6 x Fans (including PSU fans)
-4 x Memory (128MB DDR)
-1 x Graphic Card
-1 x PCI Sound
-1 x HDD
-1 x CD-RW
-1 x Keyboard
-1 x Mouse
-1 x PCI Modem
-CPU: Intel P4 3.0D GHz 0.13 µm µPGA478 @ 1.525 V with HTT

The 24V 206W (306-99) requirement gives 17A.

If you want my experience, buy the 465. The Antec 430 will handle what you have now but if you add a better video card you may run out of juice.
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johnanna

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« Reply #86 on: 18-March-04, 18:56:37 »

:bonk:never mind, I need just how to that do math power support calculator to my antec truepower 430 watts? but what is about 480 watts?

and you are right!, where is buy Enermax EG465P-VE FCA in store or online?


thank you

-------------------
my system has:  :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB
2 x 256MB DDR400 PC3200
MSI Geforce FX 5600-VTDR 128MB
WD 80GB and 120 GB IDE HDD
LG 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
US Robotic 56K v.92 PCI
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts
Sound Blaster live 5.1 card
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:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:My :-D) system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS BIOS v1.9 (not more update!) :shy:
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB:230Mhz@3.40GHZ 8-))
2 x 512MB (1 GB) DDR500 PC4000 CL=3-4-4-8-1 ~ @2.7V
ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB v4.11 @499MHZ normal (no OC') :tongue:
WD 250 GB IDE HDD and S-ATA 80 GB
Artec 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
PSU:5V~36A;3.3V~28A;12V~20A@410W
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS card-SPK 7.1 Digital

Danny

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« Reply #87 on: 18-March-04, 19:07:20 »

watts = volts x amps

+3.3V x 28.0A = 92.4W
+5V x 36A = 180W
+12V x 20A = 240W

Total: 512.4W

However, the entire supply has a limit of 410W on the above voltages. That's why you can't make a decision based on Watts alone.

Enermax is available both on-line and through computer stores.
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johnanna

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« Reply #88 on: 18-March-04, 19:12:36 »

Ok, I will you see soon, thanks lot of help me :-))



-------------------
my system has:  :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB
2 x 256MB DDR400 PC3200
MSI Geforce FX 5600-VTDR 128MB
WD 80GB and 120 GB IDE HDD
LG 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
US Robotic 56K v.92 PCI
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts
Sound Blaster live 5.1 card
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:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:My :-D) system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS BIOS v1.9 (not more update!) :shy:
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB:230Mhz@3.40GHZ 8-))
2 x 512MB (1 GB) DDR500 PC4000 CL=3-4-4-8-1 ~ @2.7V
ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB v4.11 @499MHZ normal (no OC') :tongue:
WD 250 GB IDE HDD and S-ATA 80 GB
Artec 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
PSU:5V~36A;3.3V~28A;12V~20A@410W
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS card-SPK 7.1 Digital

johnanna

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« Reply #89 on: 29-March-04, 18:54:36 »

Hi, again all there

I have tried all day :fear:, I'm sure i don't know how to PSu calculator, have some questions: :confused2:

A. is it correct my done math of psu calculator? and why different them of amps? how much most important of amps (+3.3v,+5v,+12v) (see below)
My PSU calculator:

EnerMAX EG465P-VE FCA
3.3V @ 0.3A / 35A
+5V @ 0.3A / 35A
+12V @ 1.5A / 33A
-12V @ 0A / 1A  
-5V @ 0A / 1A  
+5Vsb @ 0.1A / 2.2A
---------------------
+3.3V & +5V=200W  
Total O/P=460W

Calculator PSU:
+3.3V*35A = 115.5W
+5v*35A = 175W
+12v*33A = 396w

total = 686.5watts---No way! :shocked:(this is too much)
3.3v + 5v = 290.5 watts

686.5@70% = 480.55w

686.5@30% = 205.95w

686.5@50% = 343.25w


So, the 396 watts from the 12v rail and its running @ 70% = 227.2W,
now 396 watts @ 30%  118.8W, and 156 watts running @ the optimal 50% = 198Watts.


--AND--

Antec Truepower with blue LED 480
+3.3V @ 0A/30.0A
+5V @ 0A/38A
+12V @ 0.8A/22A
-5V @ 0A/0.5A
-12V @ 0A/1.0A
+5VSB @ 0A/2.0A
-------------------
+3.3v , +5v & +12v = 410 Watts max


Calculator PSU:
+3.3V*30A = 99W
+5v*38A = 190W
+12v*22A = 264w

total = 553watts
3.3v + 5v = 289 watts

553@70% = 387.1w

553@30% = 165.9w

553@50% = 276.5w

so, the 264 watts from the 12v rail and its running @ 70% = 184.8W,
now 264 watts @ 30% = 133W, and 264 watts running @ the optimal 50% = 69.3Watts.


Can I choose Antec TrueBlue 480 watts? is it OK? :confused2:


-------------------------------------------------------


B. is it right my done math of PSU calculator? how much one choose my good psu?


My sign:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB
2 x 512MB DDR400 PC3200
ATI Radeon 9600 XT 128MB AGP
WD 80GB serial ATA and 120 GB EIDE HDD
LG 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
Sony DVD-RW
US Robotic 56K v.92 PCI
6x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Sound Blaster live 5.1 card
keyboard and mouse (wireless)
USB S-bracket
firewire card IEEE 1394



My siguration all system to caluclator
from http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/ about 475 Watts


475 watts --> 475 + 475*30% = 617.5 then 617.5 - 617.5*30% = 432.25w as same as
475 - 475*30% = 332.5 then 332.5 + 332.5*30% = 432.25w...enjoy!


other from http://www.adecy.com/psu/ about:

Recommended PSU: 425W (143W on +3.3v & +5v rails) for:
-1 x Motherboard without onboard devices
-8 x Fans (including PSU fans)
-4 x Memory (128MB DDR)
-1 x Graphic Card
-1 x with powerful 3D Accelerator
-1 x PCI Sound
-1 x PCI Network Card
-2 x HDD
-1 x CD-RW
-1 x DVD
-1 x Floppy
-1 x USB devices
-1 x Keyboard
-1 x Mouse
-1 x PCI Modem
-1 x FireWire
-CPU: Intel P4 3.0D GHz 0.13 µm µPGA478 @ 1.525 V with HTT


Can anyone help me, please????:cry:

thanks
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:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:My :-D) system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS BIOS v1.9 (not more update!) :shy:
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB:230Mhz@3.40GHZ 8-))
2 x 512MB (1 GB) DDR500 PC4000 CL=3-4-4-8-1 ~ @2.7V
ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB v4.11 @499MHZ normal (no OC') :tongue:
WD 250 GB IDE HDD and S-ATA 80 GB
Artec 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
PSU:5V~36A;3.3V~28A;12V~20A@410W
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS card-SPK 7.1 Digital

Wonkanoby

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« Reply #90 on: 30-March-04, 02:47:43 »

with almost every thing in your box running of the 12v rail

make sure the 3.3v is over 28a

and then get the biggest 12v amps value going

in your case the enermax you listed

but if you have that antec 430 now why do you need a new psu

i would have thought thats fine
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johnanna

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« Reply #91 on: 02-April-04, 18:46:56 »

I don't have power supply yet, you said "EG465P-VE FCA", but more different model/series, I don't understanding that...
what's all mean enermax power supply models/series?

-ATX 12V Ver. 1.3 Product line:
     • Noisetaker Series  
P MODEL  
AX MODEL WITH PFC  
 
    • Coolergiant Series  
P MODEL  
AX MODEL WITH PFC  

 
 
-ATX 12V Ver. 1.2 Product line:
      • Fan speed Adjustable Series
      Standard Models
EG465P-VE FCA
EG465P-VE FMA

     • Active PFC Series (G)(W)  
EG465AX-VE FCA
EG465AX-VE FMA
 
    • Fan Monitor Series
EG465P-VE FM
 
    • Fan Control Series
EG465P-VE FC



thanks
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:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:My :-D) system has: :agree:
MSI 865PE Neo2-LS BIOS v1.9 (not more update!) :shy:
P4 3GHz + HT + 800MHz FSB:230Mhz@3.40GHZ 8-))
2 x 512MB (1 GB) DDR500 PC4000 CL=3-4-4-8-1 ~ @2.7V
ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB v4.11 @499MHZ normal (no OC') :tongue:
WD 250 GB IDE HDD and S-ATA 80 GB
Artec 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-on 52x32X52 CD-RW
4x 80mm fans and Cold Cathode Tube Light
Antec PLUSView1000AMG Case (no power supply)
Antec Truepower 430 Watts:
PSU:5V~36A;3.3V~28A;12V~20A@410W
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS card-SPK 7.1 Digital

josep_zxr

  • Guest
don't understand calculation
« Reply #92 on: 03-April-04, 06:31:45 »

Hi there, I wanna ask you if you think is enough for my PC, because I've got a problem with my TV Tuner and I think is the Power Supply, and I can not understand what the calculation means.

Thank you in advance

Motherboard: MS-6712 KT4V
CPU: AMD 2600+ (2133 MHz)
RAM: 512 DDR@333 + 2*(256 DDR@333)
Video Card: MSI nVidia GeForce 4 TI 4800 AGP 8
HD:  2*(Seagate Barracuda 80 Gb 7200  ATA 100)
Sound Card: Sounb Blaster 5.1
LAN: Dlink PCI 10/100
TV Tuner: Pinnacle PCTV Pro PCI
DVD Reader
CD-RW
No chassis fan
Power Supply: 3.3 / 20  #  5 /30   #  12 / 13

 :biggthumbsup:
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josep_zxr

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RE: don't understand calculation
« Reply #93 on: 03-April-04, 06:56:40 »

Sorry I forgot, I've tried calculation at http://www.adecy.com/psu, and I got I need
423 W, does it mean I need a PSU whose features give 423 following your calculation or what?

Thank you, I can not understand what all these numbers mean

 :idea:
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #94 on: 03-April-04, 11:17:40 »

stick to enermax amd the 465 and you will not go wrong
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xsoft

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« Reply #95 on: 12-April-04, 21:55:18 »

check this:

thermal take 480
+3.3 @ 30A
+5   @ 40A
+12  @ 18A


PowMAX 500

+3.3 @ 28A
+5   @ 30A
+12  @ 25A

Vantec 470

+3.3 @ 26A
+5   @ 47A
+12  @ 28A


Antec 480

+3.3 @ 30A
+5   @ 38A
+12  @ 22A


How do i know which one is the best? base on what?
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P4 2.4Ghz. @ 2.5Ghz  533 MHz 512CACHE
MoBo. D845PEBT2 - CPU FAN AERO 4
2 512 PC2700 333MHz  - MSI FX5900XT
C: 200G SEAGATE -  D: 60G SEAGATE
ENCORE  TV  - SB LIVE
GENERIC MODEM -  NEXUS 201 FRONT PANEL
(3) 12" CATODE LIGHT  - (5) 4 BLUE LED FANS
4 LEADS CASE FRONT
LG 52x24x52x CDRW - LG 52x DVD
LG LCD 17";   - ALTEC LANSING 251
LOGITECH QUICKCAM EXPRESS
BENQ  MOUSE
LOGITECH ELITE KEYBOARD
LOGITECH DUAL ACTION USB GAME PAD
LOGITECH WINGMAN JOYSTICK
PS  ANTEC 480  +3.3v  30A   +5v 38A +12v 22A
 :biggthumbsup:

just a few months an this will change....

FATMOUSE

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« Reply #96 on: 04-May-04, 18:24:30 »

Trust me when I say that ThermalTake and PowMax are probably not the way to go. I don't know about Vantec, but I'm using an Antec True550 fine.
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coollg

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« Reply #97 on: 12-May-04, 09:42:30 »

ive got a pritty week power supply bu my system runns fine no probs hasnt crashed as yet.
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #98 on: 12-May-04, 10:02:17 »

well with that vga you have a fair chance,just dont go putting a 5950 in there
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coollg

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« Reply #99 on: 12-May-04, 15:00:44 »

if ik did that i would put a better oone in defentaly i recon its just holding out at the mo lol

yeah i gotthsi strange prob

i got a antec 550watt same as your wond but i put it in my pc and is simply blow when i turned it fankfully my pc was ok any ideas why it did that
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Wonkanoby

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« Reply #100 on: 12-May-04, 16:13:00 »

nope unless it was set to 110v not 240v
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coollg

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« Reply #101 on: 12-May-04, 17:20:05 »

utn is it true that that sometimes happens for no reason they either work for years of just :censored: up striaght away
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