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Author Topic: Killer NIC (LAN & Wireless) problems  (Read 28485 times)

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QuantumParadox

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Killer NIC (LAN & Wireless) problems
« on: 29-December-12, 04:38:20 »

Hey guys,

I bought my MSI GT 70 ONCE notebook back in May and it worked very well until, now. For some reason my Killer E2200 card will case my Windows 7 Pro x64 and Windows 8 pro x64 to give a BSOD. I have determined it is the killer nic for when i disable it,, and use the Intel Wifi, everything woks fine. Also, sometimes, my notebook does not see my Drobo 5D on the USB  3.0 port but it reds other USB devices fine including other hard drives. I think I have a problem with my motherboard or just the killer NIC. I have my system configured with 16 GB RAM, two hard drives one a 500 GB WDC and the other a 750 GB WDC.  I have uploaded my BIOS using a USB flash drive but I can't seem to update to the BIOS for Win 8. I've contacted MSI and they sent me an RMA and I will send them back the notebook. I just want to know if this has happened to any of you guys?

PS; I'm a RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) student studying information Security & Forensics. and in my dorm my internet speeds are 600 MBPS down and 25 MBPS up. I have to plug into the killer NIC to get those speeds.
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Svet

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #1 on: 29-December-12, 04:55:51 »

try latest killer driver: http://www.killergaming.com/support/Downloads?category=3&model=123&download_type=1&os=7

else try EC reset
or/and restore OS to factory default
retest.

QuantumParadox

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #2 on: 29-December-12, 05:11:15 »

I've tried the latest killer E2200 drivers and they make my computer on both Windows 7 and Windows 8 BSOD or kernal errors. What is EC? I don't have the recovery partition but I don't think a factory default will solve anything. I think it's hardware.
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Svet

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #3 on: 29-December-12, 05:13:01 »

see about ec reset http://forum-en.msi.com/faq/article/how-to-reset-the-ec-embedded-controller

Quote
I think it's hardware.

rma it in such case

QuantumParadox

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #4 on: 29-December-12, 05:17:41 »

Has there been any other people with issues with their Killer NIC?
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #6 on: 29-December-12, 05:49:28 »

I never got my issue to go away in Windows 8 when I upgraded.

In Windows 7, since reinstalling and using the latest drivers, I've had 1 BSoD since then (2 months now), and it was related to the E2200.

Needless to say, I have found that in Windows 8, the E2200 drivers are very very bad. I'd stick to Windows 7, if you can.  :cry:
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MSI GT70 0NE
Core i7 3610
16 GB DDR3
2 x 240 GB Muskin Atlas Deluxe mSATA SSD's in SuperRaid
500 GB HDD
GTX680M with Core@980 MHz and Memory@2100 MHz
Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
Windows 8 with Start8
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This system runs at a cool 65C while playing the newest and most demanding games at highest settings possible.

QuantumParadox

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #7 on: 30-December-12, 15:47:55 »

I just found out something really interesting with the killer NIC on my notebook. I lowered the speed to just 10/100 instead of 10/100/1000, I get no BSOD's and my system runs stable. I went into the killer NIC app manager and lowered to just 100 and then i went into device manager on Windows 8 and lowered put it on 10/100 instead of auto negotiate. Interestingly, there is no 10/100/1000 in device manager.

Am i looking at a hardware problem or a software problem? My campus network down speeds are 725 MBPS and 10.34 MBPS up.
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #8 on: 30-December-12, 21:21:04 »

I just found out something really interesting with the killer NIC on my notebook. I lowered the speed to just 10/100 instead of 10/100/1000, I get no BSOD's and my system runs stable. I went into the killer NIC app manager and lowered to just 100 and then i went into device manager on Windows 8 and lowered put it on 10/100 instead of auto negotiate. Interestingly, there is no 10/100/1000 in device manager.

Am i looking at a hardware problem or a software problem? My campus network down speeds are 725 MBPS and 10.34 MBPS up.

"Auto" mode is what allows you to use it in 1000 mode in the device manager settings.

Needless to say, that is very interesting that by changing it down to 10/100, there are no issues.

When you're at your 10/100 speeds, what are the download/upload speeds you are getting? Are you still able to get closer to the higher 1000 speeds? That'd be quite interesting if that's really how to solve the issue. Can you try that and post back?
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MSI GT70 0NE
Core i7 3610
16 GB DDR3
2 x 240 GB Muskin Atlas Deluxe mSATA SSD's in SuperRaid
500 GB HDD
GTX680M with Core@980 MHz and Memory@2100 MHz
Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
Windows 8 with Start8
Custom notebook cooler

This system runs at a cool 65C while playing the newest and most demanding games at highest settings possible.

QuantumParadox

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #9 on: 31-December-12, 04:24:41 »

Hey,

With my speeds set to 10/100, I only get about 95 + or - 5 %. So i am not getting the full downloads my university has to offer.  So, am i looking at a software or hardware problem? I have the RMA papers and I am ready to send it back. However, I don't want to send it back if it is just a software glitch.  They will install Windows 7 Home Prem and well my university gave me 7 Pro and Win 8 Pro. Also, I want to get two SSD's for this. I am thinking fo the Samsung 840s
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #10 on: 31-December-12, 06:13:42 »

Hey,

With my speeds set to 10/100, I only get about 95 + or - 5 %. So i am not getting the full downloads my university has to offer.  So, am i looking at a software or hardware problem? I have the RMA papers and I am ready to send it back. However, I don't want to send it back if it is just a software glitch.  They will install Windows 7 Home Prem and well my university gave me 7 Pro and Win 8 Pro. Also, I want to get two SSD's for this. I am thinking fo the Samsung 840s

I see.

You're probably still looking at a software problem TBQH.

As far as 2 SSD's....Just realize that one of the slots is SATA2 only, NOT SATA3 like the other. If it were me, I'd get 2xmSATA drives and get the SuperDrive option. But then again, that's just me.
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MSI GT70 0NE
Core i7 3610
16 GB DDR3
2 x 240 GB Muskin Atlas Deluxe mSATA SSD's in SuperRaid
500 GB HDD
GTX680M with Core@980 MHz and Memory@2100 MHz
Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
Windows 8 with Start8
Custom notebook cooler

This system runs at a cool 65C while playing the newest and most demanding games at highest settings possible.

QuantumParadox

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #11 on: 31-December-12, 06:47:24 »

Hey,
My computer froze again with the killer NIC set to 10/100. What is happening now is, my system becomes lagging and programs start to stop responding. When i jsut use the wifi, everything runs smoothly. So I think I am looking at hardware trouble with the killer nic or just something weird with the drivers. My system stayed stable for over a day on teh NIC with the settings set  to 10/100. 

How can i go Msata? What do I need and what are some good msata drives for super raid? Can I get two Msata's and two SSDs? I do a lot of writing and reading and it slows my hard drives down. I am looking at the Samsung 840 SSDs. SSDs & Msata are newer technologies for me, I am still used to the old mechanical drives but now I have a Drobo space is not a problem.

What I am planning on doing first is shipping my system back on RMA in which i hope they replace my motherboard. i never had  issues with my NIC before on the college network. All of this started last week and i have been plugged into my college network since September with no rouble on teh killer nic.
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #12 on: 31-December-12, 09:00:15 »

Hey,
My computer froze again with the killer NIC set to 10/100. What is happening now is, my system becomes lagging and programs start to stop responding. When i jsut use the wifi, everything runs smoothly. So I think I am looking at hardware trouble with the killer nic or just something weird with the drivers. My system stayed stable for over a day on teh NIC with the settings set  to 10/100. 

How can i go Msata? What do I need and what are some good msata drives for super raid? Can I get two Msata's and two SSDs? I do a lot of writing and reading and it slows my hard drives down. I am looking at the Samsung 840 SSDs. SSDs & Msata are newer technologies for me, I am still used to the old mechanical drives but now I have a Drobo space is not a problem.

What I am planning on doing first is shipping my system back on RMA in which i hope they replace my motherboard. i never had  issues with my NIC before on the college network. All of this started last week and i have been plugged into my college network since September with no rouble on teh killer nic.

What is actually happening? Is it a BSOD? What is the error? Is it related to e22w7x64.sys? If not, it's not the NIC.

mSATA are basically SSD's. The higher end GT70's come with them. Pretty much any GT70 should be able to be converted into one, if you get the hardware. I'm not sure how much it costs to be quite honest.

I went with 2 x Mushkin Atlas Deluxe 240GB mSATA drives....so raided together it's 480 gigs of SSD. It's very fast, and quite nice, but quite expensive (approximately 400 for just the mSATA drives).
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MSI GT70 0NE
Core i7 3610
16 GB DDR3
2 x 240 GB Muskin Atlas Deluxe mSATA SSD's in SuperRaid
500 GB HDD
GTX680M with Core@980 MHz and Memory@2100 MHz
Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
Windows 8 with Start8
Custom notebook cooler

This system runs at a cool 65C while playing the newest and most demanding games at highest settings possible.

QuantumParadox

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #13 on: 31-December-12, 10:19:41 »

No, I don't know what the code is no but it was not the NIC driver. It was the kernel crashing caused but the NIC is what the dump files were saying but those things are nothing but complex codes.

I was never having this amount of trouble before. i don't remember doing anything differently for these errors to happen.  it's funny, i can diagnost other users computererrors but sometimes I can't diagnose my own. My errors are more complex it seems.

I jsut know it is the killer NIC for when i sue the intel Wifi, everything is fine!

Now for those two MSATA drives? Do i need to take out my optical drive? Can I take out the optical drive, put the MSATA drive there get two Samsung 840 SSDs?
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #14 on: 31-December-12, 17:13:26 »

No, I don't know what the code is no but it was not the NIC driver. It was the kernel crashing caused but the NIC is what the dump files were saying but those things are nothing but complex codes.

I was never having this amount of trouble before. i don't remember doing anything differently for these errors to happen.  it's funny, i can diagnost other users computererrors but sometimes I can't diagnose my own. My errors are more complex it seems.

I jsut know it is the killer NIC for when i sue the intel Wifi, everything is fine!

Now for those two MSATA drives? Do i need to take out my optical drive? Can I take out the optical drive, put the MSATA drive there get two Samsung 840 SSDs?

If it was a kernel error, it sounds more like the issue is NOT the NIC and related to something else. Kernel's crashing generally mean either a 'heat' issue (CPU/GPU getting too hot, rather unlikely though) or some other very strange problem (a virus perhaps?) in the software.

As for the mSATA, no. You'd have to use 1 of the normal hard drive slots. The rear one on the left actually has a special connector on the board that has 2 SATA3 ports built into it for using a special mSATA board that MSI sells/includes in the higher end GT70's. I'd take a picture of mine but I really don't want to take my notebook apart.  :-P)
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MSI GT70 0NE
Core i7 3610
16 GB DDR3
2 x 240 GB Muskin Atlas Deluxe mSATA SSD's in SuperRaid
500 GB HDD
GTX680M with Core@980 MHz and Memory@2100 MHz
Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
Windows 8 with Start8
Custom notebook cooler

This system runs at a cool 65C while playing the newest and most demanding games at highest settings possible.

pjmtlg

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #15 on: 02-January-13, 15:53:30 »

Kernel crashing can be caused by any driver. 

QuantumParadox, you can analyse and debug the memory.dmp file to know what caused the STOP exactly.  For this, you can use windbg, the debugger from microsoft.  You can find a lot of guide if you search for "debug memory dump" or "analyse memory.dmp", etc.  This is not really difficult to do at your level.

Here is one guide : forums.majorgeeks.com/showthread.php?t=35246  (i can't post external links)

I also got a lot of BSOD with the killer nic and every analyses lead to the e22w8x64.sys, the Killer driver.  This driver also crash Steam when you try to voice chat on the killer nic.

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johnmartintaylor

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #16 on: 20-January-13, 00:48:03 »

19 January

Moved my GT70 to the office and used network cable for first time.  System kept rebooting with e22w8x64.sys in error message.  It would boot, then, in about 15 seconds show the error message and then reboot. Pulled cable and switched to wireless.  Now stays up.  Wireless works but slower.

Thank you for the clue.  Now I'll get to MSI to see what they say.

John
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pjmtlg

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #17 on: 23-January-13, 10:22:39 »

For my problems with the killer nic, I have contacted the Killer Gaming support and I got a solution for every bsod and application crash issues from them.  Everything was related to the Killer Network Manager.  They are very nice and helpful.

-> http://www.killergaming.com/support/
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #18 on: 24-January-13, 04:22:50 »

For my problems with the killer nic, I have contacted the Killer Gaming support and I got a solution for every bsod and application crash issues from them.  Everything was related to the Killer Network Manager.  They are very nice and helpful.

-> http://www.killergaming.com/support/

They wouldn't even respond to my support tickets or emails. I wouldn't call that 'nice and helpful'. I'd call that completely worthless. That's just my side anyway.

What was their solution for Windows 8? Because I still have yet to find an acceptable solution for it, or atleast a driver that doesn't crash when using any voice-over-ip type application.
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MSI GT70 0NE
Core i7 3610
16 GB DDR3
2 x 240 GB Muskin Atlas Deluxe mSATA SSD's in SuperRaid
500 GB HDD
GTX680M with Core@980 MHz and Memory@2100 MHz
Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
Windows 8 with Start8
Custom notebook cooler

This system runs at a cool 65C while playing the newest and most demanding games at highest settings possible.

pjmtlg

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #19 on: 24-January-13, 20:42:37 »

They wouldn't even respond to my support tickets or emails. I wouldn't call that 'nice and helpful'. I'd call that completely worthless. That's just my side anyway.

What was their solution for Windows 8? Because I still have yet to find an acceptable solution for it, or atleast a driver that doesn't crash when using any voice-over-ip type application.
Well, I don't know why I had a good support and not you.  :think:

Yes, the solution was for win8 and like you for voice over ip. 

The first solution for this is lowering the priority of the process in in the Applications section of the Killer Network Manager to 2 or 3.  3 works for me.  Beware that I had to do this 2 times for it to works, the first time the priority resets to 1.  I also have set the default priority to 3 for every new application.

Another solution that works with every application is to bypass the network manager.  I quote the support (that was for a bsod with a game):

Quote
The problem is likely that the application won't accept the offload features of the Killer, so you may need to bypass it. You can do that by making sure that you're running the latest version of the drivers (from http://www.killergaming.com/support/Downloads) and do the following:

First, ensure hidden files and folders are being shown in Windows Explorer, then navigate to

C:\ProgramData\Bigfoot Networks

Right-click the GameDetect.xml file and click "Edit"

From here, you'll see a section at the top that looks like this:

<GameDetectSettings>
     <ByPassSection>
     <ByPass>mozybackup.exe</ByPass>
     <ByPass>mozystat.exe</ByPass>
     <ByPass>mozyconfig.exe</ByPass>

All you need to do is add a new line right under the mozy stuff and replace it with your application .exe. So, it should look something like this:

<ByPass>yourapp.exe</ByPass>

Then save the file and exit, then you'll need to reboot. You may then be able to connect to your game.


Even if the file name  seems to be related to games, it's working with any application (at least for mines).


« Last Edit: 24-January-13, 20:47:54 by pjmtlg »
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goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #20 on: 25-January-13, 01:01:13 »

I'm tired of BSOD. Any help?

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pjmtlg

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #21 on: 25-January-13, 02:07:19 »

I'm tired of BSOD. Any help?

Except analysing the memory.dmp to eventuelly find what caused the driver crash, like i said here : http://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=164835.msg1208261#msg1208261 I can't help you more. 

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goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #22 on: 25-January-13, 07:46:45 »

Except analysing the memory.dmp to eventuelly find what caused the driver crash, like i said here : http://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=164835.msg1208261#msg1208261 I can't help you more.

well they are ignoring my ticket just like they did to darkhawk. You are lucky to get help from them.

Is there a way to bypass killer network manager?
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pjmtlg

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #23 on: 25-January-13, 13:15:14 »

Have tried to run windbg to analyse your memory.dmp ?  This can give you a lot of information and eventually you will find which .exe is the cause of the bsod.  Once you know this, you can add it to the bypass section.

As the killer manager seems to cause crashes when it tries to change the TCP/IP packet priority, you can try to set the default priority to 3 (normal) and delete every Application already configured in the Application Tab of the network manager after that.  Doing that configure every new application to the default priority and seems to leave all the TCP/IP packet unchanged like any other network driver.

Here the default priority was set to 2 when I got the netbook and since the default priority is set to 3 (Normal), I don't have any issue with the Killer (so far).
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goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #24 on: 25-January-13, 13:53:18 »

Have tried to run windbg to analyse your memory.dmp ?  This can give you a lot of information and eventually you will find which .exe is the cause of the bsod.  Once you know this, you can add it to the bypass section.

As the killer manager seems to cause crashes when it tries to change the TCP/IP packet priority, you can try to set the default priority to 3 (normal) and delete every Application already configured in the Application Tab of the network manager after that.  Doing that configure every new application to the default priority and seems to leave all the TCP/IP packet unchanged like any other network driver.

Here the default priority was set to 2 when I got the netbook and since the default priority is set to 3 (Normal), I don't have any issue with the Killer (so far).

The default priory selection is disabled so I cannot change it.
Why doesn't the idiots that unjustly change TCP headers fix this problem? Aren't they so "intelligent" to abuse the conversions in TCP socket communications by marking every application as high priority?

"Everybody is special", "Every packet is urgent". What an idiotic way of doing engineering. Mark every packet as urgent and then call it `optimized for gaming`.  Optimized for BSOD. Fastest blue screen you have every seen.

I'm really very upset about this issue. The MSI product that I have bought is not a cheap one. I though I have considered every single piece in it, QM3630 in I7, 1600Mgz in RAM, 7200 rpm in disk, a good nvidia card. But I guess I missed the `optimized` component. I'm angry because the advertisement is based on FALSE CLAIMS. You do not experience LAGS on online gaming because your application has low priority in TCP stack. It is a LIE. You lag if your connection is bad. The effect of TCP prioritization is like one in a million. (Maybe less in I7-core that can process packets in no time). First advertise pure :censored:  and make a :censored: driver and then when things go bad force people to undo what you have done, instead of fixing the damn problem.  :sad:
« Last Edit: 25-January-13, 14:06:38 by goktuggurler »
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Svet

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #25 on: 25-January-13, 14:16:11 »

MSI has been notified, they are checking the root case.
Thanks.

goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #26 on: 25-January-13, 14:17:45 »

I'm unhappy about KGN not MSI. (I believe they are distinct entities?) Anyway, thank you...
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Svet

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #27 on: 25-January-13, 14:31:46 »

msi will ask KGN about this problem, as cleary msi don't make drivers for KGN  :)
hope they will fix it soon

pjmtlg

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #28 on: 25-January-13, 14:38:03 »

@goktuggurler, Have you tried to uncheck the Qualcomm Atheros Bandwith Control and MS QoS on the Ethernet Killer controller ?
This normally removes all the packet management for the nic.
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Svet

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #29 on: 25-January-13, 14:43:44 »

Quote from: goktuggurler
I would like to investigate how much improvement does KGN brings on top of regular Ethernet cards. Can anyone provide me some directions.

see an compare example:

goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #30 on: 25-January-13, 15:16:51 »

see an compare example:

If someone claims that the network interface can make a difference of 700ms (900ms to 200ms) then he is lying or there is some serious problem with the network interface card of one of the machines.

I'm a PhD student doing research on video streaming over P2P networks. In many ways, the video streaming is very similar to computer gaming, (actually the guy in the video also made a very similar comment.) What I do as research is to implement different algorithm proposed by other researchers and compare it against my algorithm on Planet Lab, which is a collection of computers connected without firewalls. I record the test results and publish them as articles in journals and conferences.

Here are some publications:

The level of delay from Eastern Europe to Western US is about 200-250ms. If you are experiencing delay beyond this value
i) You are using wrong server, ( for 900 it should be close to moon :p )
ii) Your bandwidth is low and your packets are dropped frequently, which can increase the effective communication delay.
iii) There is something funny about your network interface card.

So, I believe that the guy in the video is simply not telling the truth. Under no circumstances, you can go from 900ms to 200ms without pulling some tricks.
« Last Edit: 25-January-13, 15:38:34 by goktuggurler »
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Svet

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #31 on: 25-January-13, 15:19:00 »

can you all affected by this BSOD, tell the image number located in:
c:\Windows\System32\oobe\OEM\Log\HddImageSN.txt

thanks.

goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #32 on: 25-January-13, 15:23:32 »

C:\Windows\System32\oobe\OEM\Log\HddImageSN.txt
ZS7-1756EM4-AS4
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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #33 on: 25-January-13, 15:24:44 »

thanks

goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #34 on: 25-January-13, 15:47:35 »

thanks

Does it confirm that I'm an MSI owner?
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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #35 on: 25-January-13, 15:49:05 »

no, i didn't asked for such purpose :)
that's msi's os images version, msi want to check in which images this problems exist and to inspect it.

pjmtlg

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #36 on: 25-January-13, 15:54:17 »

no, i didn't asked for such purpose :)
that's msi's os images version, msi want to check in which images this problems exist and to inspect it.
Mine is ZS7-1762EM4-ASS and I'm NOT affected with this kind of BSOD any more.
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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #37 on: 25-January-13, 15:56:04 »

thanks

goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #38 on: 25-January-13, 16:14:05 »

Mine is ZS7-1762EM4-ASS and I'm NOT affected with this kind of BSOD any more.
I want one of those images. :)
« Last Edit: 25-January-13, 16:16:51 by goktuggurler »
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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #39 on: 25-January-13, 17:15:21 »

G0t some info as temporary workaround:
First disable the Killer NIC service in MSconfig (see attached)
Then disable the Killer Nic Manager start-up in Taskmanager (see attached).

Reboot and you can use Skype again.
This is a temporary workaround

goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #40 on: 25-January-13, 17:18:21 »

G0t some info as temporary workaround:
First disable the Killer NIC service in MSconfig (see attached)
Then disable the Killer Nic Manager start-up in Taskmanager (see attached).

Reboot and you can use Skype again.
This is a temporary workaround

Thank you, I will do that and report if the BSOD continues to appear.

Best Regards,

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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #41 on: 26-January-13, 08:12:26 »

PN:ZS7-1762SMD-8P5

That would be my system image....


As far as why Killer Networks does what they do.....

The idea behind the card (and, I must say, that I know for a fact it works....) is that with the KN NIC you can download (torrents, streaming, whatever) while playing a video game and have virtually no lag compared to another normal NIC. The reasoning behind this is the QoS and changing the priority on the packets. It knows which programs are high priority and which are a lower priority, and because of that it can effectively reduce your gaming lag while you're downloading something else. OUTSIDE OF THAT, it really doesn't do anything else special. I mean, yes, the QoS might help you outside of your network, but most likely, it won't help at all once it reaches the internet.

That being said, I again know this works, as I use it quite a bit here at home and while I travel. It helps when you have a good internet connection that you can max out easily. I can do that, while playing games, and only see a very minor (say 20 to 30 mS) increase in latency compared to if I'm not downloading anything.

I've really been considering upgrading to Windows 8 again to see if the KN driver is actually any better. To that same end....I'm also afraid because right now my PC isn't crashing, which is kinda nice.

 :bonk:
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goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #42 on: 26-January-13, 10:39:24 »

@darkhawk

Are you sure that it improves your latency by 20-30 ms when your connection is free and there is no congestion?
What kind of network interface introduces extra 20-30 ms delay?

Can you please ping a local server please? When I do that I got

Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=249
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=249
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=249
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=249

that is a newspaper in Istanbul.  So the whole operation takes about 11ms and the current laptop is an Intel Pentium, so old.

If KGN believes that it can improve this score, they are daydreaming.
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #43 on: 26-January-13, 16:49:10 »

@darkhawk

Are you sure that it improves your latency by 20-30 ms when your connection is free and there is no congestion?
What kind of network interface introduces extra 20-30 ms delay?

Can you please ping a local server please? When I do that I got

Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=249
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=249
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=249
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=249

that is a newspaper in Istanbul.  So the whole operation takes about 11ms and the current laptop is an Intel Pentium, so old.

If KGN believes that it can improve this score, they are daydreaming.

I never said it would improve it when the connection is free (not downloading/uploading anything). I said that when you are using your connection heavily (ie downloading or uploading data), the KN NIC will prioritize other data (ie say packets for a game or VoIP program) to allow those to get sent ASAP and cause your download/upload to wait a little bit longer to get sent. This will slow down the upload/download, but it will allow you to run games or VoIP applications in realtime with little to no lag even though you're using up your entire connection.

When I go back downstairs, I'll do a comparison between my older Gateway FX laptop without a KN NIC and my GT70, both plugged into the same switch, and see how different the pings are, particularly to the address you mentioned. I'd be willing to bet that when I'm not using my connection much, it's almost the same. BUT, if I start downloading a file (say the nvidia drivers or something, that will take a little bit), I bet the KN NIC will be better than the Gateway laptop.
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Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #44 on: 26-January-13, 17:04:56 »

I see your point and you are right. But if you watch the above video, you see that the guy improves the ping by 700ms by just using KGN wireless interface and he does not mention if the link is congested or not, indicating that it is an overall improvement regardless. And that is basically not true.

I am also very suspicious about the improvement under congestion. My reasoning is as follows.

TCP has an inherent fairness mechanism. The average size of the congestion windows gets almost equal among different TCP connections. Moreover, the urgent pointer is to indicate the urgent data within the same connection, not against other connection. Thus, the behavior of the OS wis what really determines the performance unless KGN guys does not forward the data to the TCP socket but instead insert it in a queue which they create and then sort the packets based on their "custom ranking". I will really try that one when they fix the problem on Win8.
« Last Edit: 26-January-13, 17:21:06 by goktuggurler »
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #45 on: 26-January-13, 17:43:13 »

I see your point and you are right. But if you watch the above video, you see that the guy improves the ping by 700ms by just using KGN wireless interface and he does not mention if the link is congested or not, indicating that it is an overall improvement regardless. And that is basically not true.

I am also very suspicious about the improvement under congestion. My reasoning is as follows.

TCP has an inherent fairness mechanism. The average size of the congestion windows gets almost equal among different TCP connections. Moreover, the urgent pointer is to indicate the urgent data within the same connection, not against other connection. Thus, the behavior of the OS wis what really determines the performance unless KGN guys does not forward the data to the TCP socket but instead insert it in a queue which they create and then sort the packets based on their "custom ranking". I will really try that one when they fix the problem on Win8.

Watching that video really doesn't explain much. Without knowing what the network congestion is like during all that testing, it's hard to say much. It could very well be that they were congesting the network on purpose to cause the Asus and Samsung notebooks to have a much higher ping. Judging by what I know about the Killer Network NIC techology, I would assume that they were in fact doing this. Why? Because why would you get over a 400 mS ping to the other side of the world if you have a halfway decent connection? Even in China (when I was there for work), I was getting pings in the 200 mS range when playing games with people state-side. Therefore, I can only conclude they were in fact causing network congestion while doing all that testing to further exacerbate the ping times of the other notebooks. That's not a BAD thing, just slightly misleading to someone who doesn't know or understand the technology.

As far as the KN NIC is concerned, consider that they install drivers, specifically for the QoS aspect, in order to make their technology work. With that information, it's easy to conclude that they are in fact changing the QoS factor for each application being run. QoS will work on a per application, user, or data stream. From what I remember of my TCP classes in college on network engineering (this is going back about 7 years now though....), this is built into TCP and done on a per connection or packet basis, which is opposite to what you state. QoS would be pointless if it did not differentiate between different connections, as the whole point of QoS is to ensure that 'important data' is queued ahead of 'less important data', especially in cases where the data stream or connection is different between the two. While the OS is what determines it, consider that the OS determines that using the driver, and the KN drivers are not 'typical' drivers like many others. The wiki-pedia article on this is actually very good, surprisingly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_service#IP_and_Ethernet_efforts

Anyway, I'll test this later this afternoon between my 2 laptops.  :agrees:
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Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
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goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #46 on: 26-January-13, 17:52:49 »

Watching that video really doesn't explain much. Without knowing what the network congestion is like during all that testing, it's hard to say much. It could very well be that they were congesting the network on purpose to cause the Asus and Samsung notebooks to have a much higher ping. Judging by what I know about the Killer Network NIC techology, I would assume that they were in fact doing this. Why? Because why would you get over a 400 mS ping to the other side of the world if you have a halfway decent connection? Even in China (when I was there for work), I was getting pings in the 200 mS range when playing games with people state-side. Therefore, I can only conclude they were in fact causing network congestion while doing all that testing to further exacerbate the ping times of the other notebooks. That's not a BAD thing, just slightly misleading to someone who doesn't know or understand the technology.

To me, stating the KGN interface cards improve the RTT by 700 is basically a lie . :)

As far as the KN NIC is concerned, consider that they install drivers, specifically for the QoS aspect, in order to make their technology work. With that information, it's easy to conclude that they are in fact changing the QoS factor for each application being run. QoS will work on a per application, user, or data stream. From what I remember of my TCP classes in college on network engineering (this is going back about 7 years now though....), this is built into TCP and done on a per connection or packet basis, which is opposite to what you state. QoS would be pointless if it did not differentiate between different connections, as the whole point of QoS is to ensure that 'important data' is queued ahead of 'less important data', especially in cases where the data stream or connection is different between the two. While the OS is what determines it, consider that the OS determines that using the driver, and the KN drivers are not 'typical' drivers like many others. The wiki-pedia article on this is actually very good, surprisingly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_service#IP_and_Ethernet_efforts

At the end nodes, each TCP connection has a separate Congestion Control that works in an isolated from the rest of the connections. The routers in between does not even know about connections, they only parse up to level 3 (IP) and cannot judge based on TCP connection (Level 4, Transport). That means, without implementing external means, like the common queue stuff I have discussed in the previous post, one cannot control the rate of data transfer or the QoS. DiffServ and IntServ are just academic studies and is not available (at least unless you build your own network) to common people.

Anyway, I'll test this later this afternoon between my 2 laptops.  :agrees:

I'm waiting for the results :) Keep us updated.
« Last Edit: 26-January-13, 17:56:14 by goktuggurler »
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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #47 on: 26-January-13, 20:48:41 »

I have same BSOD problem. I have solved my temporary way.

Steps :
-While Rebooting unplug network cable...
-After rebooted, Close Killer Application.
-In services.msc stop "Qualcomm Atheros Killer Service".
-plug network cable again.
-Start Killer Application.
-In services.msc Start "Qualcomm Atheros Killer Service"

Now all killer services will be stable and no BSOD. but you must do all these steps each reboot.

Using Windows 8 x64, I have MS16F34. Location : Turkey/Konya.

Edit :


I Solved my problem, Skype causing to BSOD. I debugged and analyzed MEMORY.DMP and Skype.exe causing BSOD because Killer service is changing Skype's priority. I easly fixed problem. Just changed Skype's priorty to normal. Everything is normal and working...

goktuggurler, sana pm atamadım mail ile cevap yazdım ama gitti mi gitmedi mi bilmiyorum :)
« Last Edit: 26-January-13, 21:55:51 by RazieLDG »
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darkhawk

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #48 on: 26-January-13, 22:13:16 »

To me, stating the KGN interface cards improve the RTT by 700 is basically a lie . :)

At the end nodes, each TCP connection has a separate Congestion Control that works in an isolated from the rest of the connections. The routers in between does not even know about connections, they only parse up to level 3 (IP) and cannot judge based on TCP connection (Level 4, Transport). That means, without implementing external means, like the common queue stuff I have discussed in the previous post, one cannot control the rate of data transfer or the QoS. DiffServ and IntServ are just academic studies and is not available (at least unless you build your own network) to common people.

I'm waiting for the results :) Keep us updated.

I don't agree with you. I'm sorry. But you're just wrong. Even the router in my home has QoS enabled on it. The internet on the otherhand is a completely different beast, and not something that can be controlled by a single computer or QoS. BUT, the internal network can make a difference, and that's where QoS can help quite a bit.

http://kb.netgear.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/972/~/how-qos-improves-performance

That article is from 2008. I know I had routers in 2009 that had QoS implementations, some from Netgear, some from DLink. That being said, if you don't have a NIC that supports QoS, it won't do much good unless the router can sense and have a table of which data should have a higher priority. If your NIC already has this built in, the router doesn't need the table.

As far as the KN NIC and the 'lie', it's not. There are situations (albeit very specific) where it can have that much of an effect on the connection.

So, I setup the Gateway laptop, plugged into the same gigabit switch as the GT70. I started doing a ping to your address you listed before, and then started downloading the new NVidia Gefore driver from NVidia (at 4.0 MB/sec, maxing out my connection). Here's the result....

C:\Users\darkhawk>ping -t 83.66.140.10

Pinging 83.66.140.10 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=185ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=167ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=167ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=167ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=167ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=191ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=194ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=166ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=176ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=178ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=182ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=189ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=190ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=209ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=191ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=198ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=213ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=188ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=197ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=192ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=195ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=193ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=194ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=199ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=199ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=202ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=193ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=201ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=196ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=196ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=201ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=211ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=211ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=212ms TTL=242

Ping statistics for 83.66.140.10:
    Packets: Sent = 34, Received = 34, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 166ms, Maximum = 213ms, Average = 191ms

I then did the reversed the roles....

C:\Users\Kallyn>ping -t 83.66.140.10

Pinging 83.66.140.10 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=172ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=175ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=167ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=175ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=166ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=166ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=168ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=197ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=198ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=191ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=193ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=206ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=193ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=190ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=195ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=194ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=192ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=191ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=194ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=191ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=192ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=188ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=195ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=198ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=197ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=191ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=191ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=216ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=195ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=188ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=211ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=202ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=213ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=213ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=207ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=209ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=207ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=208ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=208ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=205ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=210ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=295ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=216ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=209ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=251ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=212ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=214ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=204ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=208ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=206ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=209ms TTL=242
Reply from 83.66.140.10: bytes=32 time=211ms TTL=242

Ping statistics for 83.66.140.10:
    Packets: Sent = 52, Received = 52, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 166ms, Maximum = 295ms, Average = 199ms

I will say that it didn't seem to make much of a difference here. Although, you do see that I have a higher maximum ping (~300) as opposed to 213 with the GT70/KN NIC. Is it significant? It depends on your point of view I suppose. Also, keep in mind, that we can't really look at exactly how 'stable' it was by this simple test (I'm not investing more of my 'free time' to do this...I just indulged you a bit doing it). The Gateway laptop could very well have varied up to 400 mS and we wouldn't know if we didn't 'catch' it at the same time. The average really only came out to a difference of roughly 10 mS. Not much, I'll admit, but it's something.

Perception is everything. If you can make people THINK that the KN NIC helps to decrease ping/lag, then people will think it does. In some situations, I very well do think and know it does. But that's the problem, people think that that situation is happening all the time, it isn't in most cases. Rarely am I downloading at 4.0 MB/s while playing a game. In fact, never, because that's just plain stupid to do.

Anyway, I really think that the KN NIC works in some particular situations. Does it help all the time? Probably not. But, does it really matter? The difference between the KN NIC and a normal Intel/Broadcom/Marvell NIC is probably all of $1 in price for this laptop.

The overall point is, there does seem to be some problems, and I hate that, just as other users do. We need it fixed!  :agrees:
« Last Edit: 26-January-13, 22:19:56 by darkhawk »
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MSI GT70 0NE
Core i7 3610
16 GB DDR3
2 x 240 GB Muskin Atlas Deluxe mSATA SSD's in SuperRaid
500 GB HDD
GTX680M with Core@980 MHz and Memory@2100 MHz
Asus Xonar U3 USB Sound Card for Optical Output and Dolby Digital upconverting
Windows 8 with Start8
Custom notebook cooler

This system runs at a cool 65C while playing the newest and most demanding games at highest settings possible.

goktuggurler

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Re: MSI GT70-ONC Killer nic problem
« Reply #49 on: 26-January-13, 22:50:09 »

How can you improve by 700ms while your connection while traveling halfway around the world only takes 200 ms?
Stating that it does without stating that it can only be done in adverse conditions is not an honest way of doing business.
Moreover, how come the wired connection provides only 200ms while wireless does it in 900ms. How do you explain that?

Your router is actually is not a router if it is parsing up to TCP according to the 5 layer protocol stack. :)
You know [5 application] [4 transport] [3 network] [2 link] [1 phys.]
The routers that are routing your traffic over the internet is currently does not consider the anything related to TCP layer and almost 99.9 of them ignores the IP type of service field, which you can use it for differentiated services.

Can you please tell us the ping results with KGN under the following test scenario

1) Congested and pinging as a prioritized KGN
2) Congested and pinging as non prioritized KGN
3) Congested and pinging as non KGN

I really don't think that you will see much of a difference.


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