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Author Topic: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate  (Read 11306 times)

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mtanskiTopic starter

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Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« on: 12-April-17, 22:04:23 »

Even with the new BIOS I've been having trouble with RAM running stable at 3200 (and 2933 as well) on my B350 Tomahawk. It posts and boots, but fails burn it tests or games / demanding apps crash. 2666 does work okay. Currently I'm using CMU16GX4M2C3200C16R which is the same kit as CMU32GX4M4C3200C16 on the memory QVL list; the difference is one is 2x8 and the other one is 4x8. Which makes me wonder how was CMU32GX4M4C3200C16 tested?

I can it more stable by cranking up the CPU NB (CPU SOC) voltage to 1.2 and DRAM voltage to 1.4. But it's not a 100%, just less likely to encounter errors.  I took the same RAM and put it in a i7 system and it runs fine.

The kicker is the i7 system with it's auto-negotiation does set it's into 2T mode, not 1T mode like the Tomahawk. 16-18-18-36-2 vs 16-18-18-36-1. The i7 does not have the same issues (ran same tests). Doing a bit more research on forums and /r/Amd it looks like some other boards auto set 2T or let you switch to 2T with the 1004a BIOS. Apparently it has solved issues for some other folks that were getting bit errors from burning tests, ontop of it didn't require ranking the SOC voltages over 1.2+

So it would be fantastic if a future BIOSes had the option to toggle into 2T mode.

Mostly doing this in hopes somebody knows how to get in touch with somebody from MSI engineering. Did sent a support ticket with the details, but I doubt it'll get forwarded to R&D.
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ollanketojo

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #1 on: 12-April-17, 22:31:20 »

I have exact same problem with MSI X370 Gaming pro carbon. There are no option to change 1T to 2T and I'm pretty sure this is reason why my RAM fails to run @3200mhz (now 2666mhz)
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mtanskiTopic starter

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #2 on: 13-April-17, 22:11:52 »

I had some issues doing starting from cold boot today. The machine tried a few times and eventually it booted in 2133 mode but low and behold when I looked at HWinfo in windows it was running in 2T mode. So clearly its possible. Need a 2T bios option / or like intel mobos it should default to 2T mode for high frequency RAM unless 1T is in the XMP profile.
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jaybe

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #3 on: 14-April-17, 06:32:11 »

Even with the new BIOS I've been having trouble with RAM running stable at 3200 (and 2933 as well) on my B350 Tomahawk. It posts and boots, but fails burn it tests or games / demanding apps crash. 2666 does work okay. Currently I'm using CMU16GX4M2C3200C16R which is the same kit as CMU32GX4M4C3200C16 on the memory QVL list; the difference is one is 2x8 and the other one is 4x8. Which makes me wonder how was CMU32GX4M4C3200C16 tested?

I can it more stable by cranking up the CPU NB (CPU SOC) voltage to 1.2 and DRAM voltage to 1.4. But it's not a 100%, just less likely to encounter errors.  I took the same RAM and put it in a i7 system and it runs fine.

The kicker is the i7 system with it's auto-negotiation does set it's into 2T mode, not 1T mode like the Tomahawk. 16-18-18-36-2 vs 16-18-18-36-1. The i7 does not have the same issues (ran same tests). Doing a bit more research on forums and /r/Amd it looks like some other boards auto set 2T or let you switch to 2T with the 1004a BIOS. Apparently it has solved issues for some other folks that were getting bit errors from burning tests, ontop of it didn't require ranking the SOC voltages over 1.2+

So it would be fantastic if a future BIOSes had the option to toggle into 2T mode.

Mostly doing this in hopes somebody knows how to get in touch with somebody from MSI engineering. Did sent a support ticket with the details, but I doubt it'll get forwarded to R&D.

What version is your CMU16GX4M2C3200C16 kit (listed on RAM heatsink)?  Mine is 5.39 (supposedly SK Hynix) and 2933 is running great down to 14-14-14-32-1T (1700X; SoC at 0.850v and RAM at 1.35v).  However, like you, at 16-18-18-36-1T 3200, I start getting bit errors in Memtest86.  If we have the same version kits, it might be down to board differences (I have Titanium) or RAM IC quality differences or even small processor IMC variations (silicon lottery) for the 2933 issues.  tRFC (refresh clock) isn't being set correctly.  Ryzen is using 312T, which is pretty aggressive.  Our kits at 3200 are rated at 559T.  So, instead, it's bumping up tRC (row cycle) timing to 69 at 2933 and 75 at 3200.  The timings aren't quite correct for OC memory just yet.

Hopefully 2T CR will be added soon (AMD also needs to provide board manufacturers a bunch of other memory timings from Ryzen's IMC in future AGESA releases too).  It'll certainly help a LOT of people with RAM issues.  RAM at its highest rated OC speed usually needs 2T, unless specifically rated for 1T.

Here are the XMP module timings reported by HWiNFO for my CMU16GX4M2C3200C16 (ver. 5.39) kit:

@1.35v
1600MHz (3200): 16-18-18-36  (no command rate listed, though likely 2T)
1500MHz (3000): 15-17-17-34
1400MHz (2800): 14-16-16-32
1333.3MHz (2667): 14-15-15-30
1200MHz (2400): 12-14-14-27
1066.1MHz (2133): 11-12-12-24 (or @1.2v 15-15-15-36)
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darkhawk

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #4 on: 14-April-17, 08:09:11 »

I'll see what I can find out.....give me a few business days (so like next wednesday maybe?) to see what MSI says.
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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #5 on: 14-April-17, 20:53:20 »

Thanks Darkhawk!
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scorpio

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #6 on: 15-April-17, 06:58:25 »

A lot of memory sticks are certified for a command rate 2T this is a big problem on MSI ryzen motherboards, bios can't translate XMP spec into 2T command rate like Gigabyte.

My https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-2400c15d-16gvr#tabs-spec was specified to 2400 cas 15 for 15-15-15-35 in 2T at 1.2V
Run well in 2133 with this timings and boot is quickly (3-4s), if I want to run in 2400 mode I need to try other timings and increase voltage to 1.35V, and can perhaps damage my sticks ...

Edit : I tried FLARE X F4-2400C15D-16GFX timings on my F4-2400C15D-16GVR it 's seems to work well now at 2400 (15-15-15-35 to 15-15-15-39).
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mtanskiTopic starter

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #7 on: 15-April-17, 09:34:55 »

Edit : I tried FLARE X F4-2400C15D-16GFX timings on my F4-2400C15D-16GVR it 's seems to work well now at 2400 (15-15-15-35 to 15-15-15-39).

If you look at G.Skill only their AMD targeting memory is officially classified as 1T (or 1N as they call it). Everything else is only guaranteed for 2T (or 2N), you might be lucky and it may work for you at 1T but it depends on the ram chips, ram PCB, IMC and board. As RAM speeds go up 1T stability becomes less likely.

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scorpio

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #8 on: 15-April-17, 10:05:08 »

I just compare G.Skill F4-2400C15D-16GVR timings to new FLARE X F4-2400C15D-16GFX
I think is perhaps the same chips but only XMP profile was just adapted for Ryzen?

https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-2400c15d-16gvr
https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-2400c15d-16gfx

F4-2400C15D-16GVR = 2400 15-15-15-35-2N
F4-2400C15D-16GFX = 2400 15-15-15-39  command rate not specified !

For me it run well now with flare x timings.

I forgot to change RAM voltage to 1.2V, but is stable has 1.21V.

FYI I remember in they old beta or stable BIOS  when I want to apply A-XMP profile it set RAM timings to @2400 15-15-15-15-36 or 15-15-15-15-37 on profile 2, sometimes booting but system was very instable or have a coldboot problem, need to very increase voltage to 1.35V for run fine.
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yues_nest

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #9 on: 17-April-17, 04:04:05 »

Good catch! I haven't yet seen an 2T/N rated stick not running at 1T by default and since not many boards allow you to change it manually it's not something easily tested. Hopefully either AMD and manufactures are already aware of this or they're taking notice.
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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #10 on: 17-April-17, 04:45:15 »

The response I got from MSI regarding this is as follows : 
"It's not up to MSI, but up to AMD to allow the user to change the command rate. It will most likely require a microcode update from AMD to make it possible. The same things happen across all vendors"

The best I can suggest, is to contact MSI about it. See : >>How to contact MSI.<<
I might also suggest going to AMD's boards and inquiring there about it. 

My understanding is that all vendors have the same issue. They are not allowed to change the command rate.
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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #11 on: 17-April-17, 07:21:36 »

My understanding is that all vendors have the same issue. They are not allowed to change the command rate.
Asus has different BIOS Versions for their AM4 flagship which either set all RAM to 1T or 2T. So yes, manufacturers are allowed to change the command rate.

Also by the way:
My MSI B350 Tomahawk set my RAM to 2T only on Version 133. All other versions set my RAM to 1T.
So obviously MSI already experimented with the command rate.

Here is the 2T verification on MSI B350 Tomahawk (Bios 133):
http://valid.x86.fr/1gs8dq
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AvengerUK

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #12 on: 17-April-17, 07:32:39 »

Asus has different BIOS Versions for their AM4 flagship which either set all RAM to 1T or 2T. So yes, manufacturers are allowed to change the command rate.

Also by the way:
My MSI B350 Tomahawk set my RAM to 2T only on Version 133. All other versions set my RAM to 1T.
So obviously MSI already experimented with the command rate.

Here is the 2T verification on MSI B350 Tomahawk (Bios 133):
http://valid.x86.fr/1gs8dq

Oh MSI >.>
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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #13 on: 17-April-17, 09:04:03 »

In my opinion, the way it works, is that RAM manufacturer and AMD decides what command rate will be used. As you noticed, different BIOS version used different command rate. I am unsure of exact differences between each version, but my guess it is up to microcode how specific RAM will be handled.
Please note, how many users reported GSkill Flare "Ryzen ready" RAM to work perfectly fine on even 3200MHz, while other manufacturers who's RAM is not "Ryzen ready" doesn't always handle those speeds.
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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #14 on: 17-April-17, 09:35:55 »

Asus has different BIOS Versions for their AM4 flagship which either set all RAM to 1T or 2T. So yes, manufacturers are allowed to change the command rate.

Also by the way:
My MSI B350 Tomahawk set my RAM to 2T only on Version 133. All other versions set my RAM to 1T.
So obviously MSI already experimented with the command rate.

Here is the 2T verification on MSI B350 Tomahawk (Bios 133):
http://valid.x86.fr/1gs8dq

I'm not disputing that.
There's a reason why I worded everything the way I did.....

I'm merely the messenger. Doesn't mean I agree with what is being said. Also doesn't mean that anything I send back to HQ is going to change anything.

My suggestion? Complain to them. See : >>How to contact MSI.<<
More can be accomplished by flooding them with users complaining about it, than posting here.
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scorpio

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In my opinion, the way it works, is that RAM manufacturer and AMD decides what command rate will be used. As you noticed, different BIOS version used different command rate. I am unsure of exact differences between each version, but my guess it is up to microcode how specific RAM will be handled.
Please note, how many users reported GSkill Flare "Ryzen ready" RAM to work perfectly fine on even 3200MHz, while other manufacturers who's RAM is not "Ryzen ready" doesn't always handle those speeds.
As you noticed, different BIOS version used different command rate. I am unsure of exact differences between each version -> hey,  they can't say it in their beta and stable bios description !
I almost tore my hair on this MoBo for running my memory stick @2400 stable ...And almost all return to RMA board and sticks..

In the future we want more informations for beta and of course stable BIOS !  ;-)
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darkhawk

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #16 on: 17-April-17, 10:09:32 »

As you noticed, different BIOS version used different command rate. I am unsure of exact differences between each version -> hey,  they can't say it in their beta and stable bios description !
I almost tore my hair on this MoBo for running my memory stick @2400 stable ...And almost all return to RMA borad and sticks..

In the future we want more informations for beta and of course stable BIOS !  ;-)

We provide what information we can.
Trust me, we aren't holding back information. And I'm petitioning all the time to provide more.
The best I can suggest is to contact MSI and petition them to release more. See : >>How to contact MSI.<<
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Yes I know isn't your fault, and thank you so much for your support Darkhawk.
Please MSI, more verbose your BIOS changelog !
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dziwisz101

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Re: Ryzen BIOS feature request: 2T command rate
« Reply #18 on: 23-August-17, 03:07:35 »

Maybe someone still find useful this information. In present AM4 BIOS's there is option in RAM timings settings "geardown mode", if I am correct when-disable it allows to set command rate at 2T, also to set an odd numbers like 17CL instead 16/18
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